Jump to content





Photo

Traction circles are Fun!


  • Please log in to reply
25 replies to this topic

#1 dirtstudent2

dirtstudent2

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,324 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:.

Posted 03 December 2017 - 12:02 PM

This boards been dead and thought I'd give everyone another chance to pick on someone.

 

Though traction circles are especially meaningless in oval racing and are intended to be a way of looking at grip on cars which turn left and right, they are though a way of thinking about grip. 

 

The idea of traction circles, is grip is a limited constant commodity and it's total use can be split into the sum of what's used for all three types of acceleration, lateral, negative and positive.  That idea though still a limited way of looking at grip becomes useless once you realizes racing and the application of grip deals with using available grip.  If that's understood and you are able to bring into it how an oval race car with a solid axle and stagger is able to get turning ability out of both the front and rear tires, I can move on.  Trying then to mix in the concept of traction circles with oval racing and available grip. 

 

I'm going to move to how the limited ground work I presented can be used to understand how to refine or get the most efficient use out of a right rear tire. 

 

No matter what the limit of available grip or what type of solid axle car your racing being the fastest is getting the most grip out of your right rear tire.  Yes you need both rear tires but I think everyone will agree the grip limit is set by the right rear tire because when it goes away in all cases the back goes away.  I'll define getting the most grip out of the right rear tire by saying your using it at it's grip limit.  It doesn't matter how much horse power you have or how heavy your car, it's going to run at it's fastest using all tires as needed, at or near their limit of grip.  I'll assume my last sentence is correct to now move thinking about a right rear tire being used at it's limit of grip. 

 

A right rear tire is only used to accelerate, decelerate and maintain maximum lateral grip. 

 

As with each rear tire on it's own, a right rear tire can only roll straight.  If it has to go in any direction other then straight it has to be forced.  Though your solid axle with stagger can create rotation of the whole car from the back, most racers because of what they race not being able to get much out of stagger, mainly think of the front tires doing the turning. 

 

If I apply traction circle thoughts to a right rear tire this is what happens. 

 

The forcing of it to turn and it's resistance to turning because on it's own it can only roll straight, then takes away from it's available lateral grip.  That means when you turn a solid axle car with the front tires you create a conflict for control of direction between the front tires and the right rear tire.  The amount of conflict then directly relates per traction circles to the amount of lateral grip you have available.  Reduce conflict and in all cases you will increase available lateral grip at the right rear tire.  Increase conflict and in all cases you will loose lateral grip at the right rear tire.

 

Where on the race track those thoughts can get you faster by allowing you to use your right rear tire better is another subject for me to get picked on if I offer it.  This is offered because I'm getting tired of looking at this site and seeing nothing interesting and I wanted to offer more of the same.    :)

 

 

edit:  I tried to read through what I just wrote and it's a crummy read at best. 

 

I'm no schooled writer and it shows but I hope the thought of how any turning you get from the front tires takes away from right rear grip is there.  And how any reduction in turning by the front tires, lets you get more out of your right rear for both lateral grip and acceleration. 

 

yeah it's obvious that if you stand on the gas while turning you'll spin out or hit the wall, but there's more to it because you need your right rear tire for more then the obvious..  :)


Edited by dirtstudent2, 03 December 2017 - 12:36 PM.



 

#2 blue by you

blue by you

    Race Fan

  • Members
  • 583 posts

Posted 03 December 2017 - 12:51 PM

WOW!!!!..... UNREAL. how long did it take you to come up with that one. :wacko:  :wacko:



#3 dirtstudent2

dirtstudent2

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,324 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:.

Posted 03 December 2017 - 02:36 PM

WOW!!!!..... UNREAL. how long did it take you to come up with that one. :wacko:  :wacko:

 

Thanks for the reply. 

 

Here's some food for thought.  Efforts to accelerate while turning does the same though not a loss of lateral grip because of conflict.



#4 jo73

jo73

    Insane Racer

  • Members
  • 1,340 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pittsburgh
  • Interests:Life, Dirt racing, H-D, Golf, Corvettes, Street Rods.

Posted 03 December 2017 - 10:07 PM

LOL. You go DS2. But you are right, the board goes dead and some try but most fail.

#5 dirtstudent2

dirtstudent2

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,324 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:.

Posted 05 December 2017 - 09:55 AM

The whole point of traction circles, the idea of having an apex, where you hit the apex and trail braking in road racing is to get from point A to point B in the turn as fast as possible and to have the highest exit speed.  Except for trail braking which is a technique to control the rate of deceleration per changing weight distribution, no engineering thought(zip, none, naughta, not squat) is given to the speed you are able to have, maintain or obtain in a turn.  Because of that the norm is an inadequate mind set of brake, turn, accelerate.



#6 blue by you

blue by you

    Race Fan

  • Members
  • 583 posts

Posted 05 December 2017 - 10:38 AM

just curious ds2. whats your take on cross weight......stagger.....rear steer....to help the car perform. :)



#7 dirtstudent2

dirtstudent2

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,324 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:.

Posted 05 December 2017 - 11:28 AM

just curious ds2. whats your take on cross weight......stagger.....rear steer....to help the car perform. :)

 

How a car preforms is all encompassing.  Performance includes all you mentioned and everything else.  Because of all the variables the best anyone can do is to take good notes on paper or learned notes through experience about how they setup and mix that with what ever level of understanding of how things work they have, be it real, invented or imagined.

 

I couldn't begin to talk to you about cross weight, stagger or rear steer without first having an understanding about your thoughts of each.  For me all of what you mentioned is about understanding their use to help your tires work as needed.

 

Just for the fun of it i'll explain to you about the true function of rear steer.  The whole purpose of rear steer is to hang the front end over the bank of the track in a turn, altering how weight is applied to tires.  Is that the sort of reply you were looking for with the addition of the smiling face at the end of your post?  I don't mind starting a controversy over is the back of the car really steering or not when you use rear steer.  That's the sort of thing which can lead to learning something be it something new or realizing your thoughts are UNREAL  :)

 

IMHO, rear steer is real if it gives the driver the feeling the car is trying to drive to the inside down the bank in a turn.  But my logic tells me no matter how it makes the operation of the car feel to the driver, except for stagger the only direction the back end can go is straight.  When I see Late Models doing well in a turn with the left rear tire pushed forward, I see the nose of the car hung out to the left.  The axle is still heading in a direction other then where the nose of the car is pointing.  Is that the sort of thing you were wanting to read?  Would you offer your thoughts about rear steer?  Yes I ask that with a smiley face too.  :)



#8 jo73

jo73

    Insane Racer

  • Members
  • 1,340 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pittsburgh
  • Interests:Life, Dirt racing, H-D, Golf, Corvettes, Street Rods.

Posted 05 December 2017 - 05:01 PM

people that thinkk DS2 is a idiot are in fact fools themselves........



#9 BaconBits

BaconBits

    Light heavyweight champion of my house

  • Members
  • 4,024 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:West Mifflin
  • Interests:Medium pimping.

Posted 05 December 2017 - 06:06 PM

people that thinkk DS2 is a idiot are in fact fools themselves........



His big problem is that he tries to equate his theories across all divisions, when none of the headline divisions are even close to similar. Thats one of the big reasons people think hes an idiot. He might understand how sprint cars work, but thats where his knowledge stops.
Follow me on Twitter: @JoshBayko

#10 jo73

jo73

    Insane Racer

  • Members
  • 1,340 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pittsburgh
  • Interests:Life, Dirt racing, H-D, Golf, Corvettes, Street Rods.

Posted 05 December 2017 - 06:36 PM

I disagree. They are the same in that the big 3 all have the same profile driving thru the corner. Are the set ups different ? There is no question. YES. DS2 looks beyond what most see and tries to understand what each corner of the car is going thru and what combination makes it work. I applaud the guy for putting it out there. As I am sure most wouldn't have any idea what adjustments do to the other corners on the car going thru motion. Reading a set up book can tell you one thing. But, once that vehicle is I'm motion everything changes. It's also why so few crew chiefs get it right on a consistent basis.

#11 BaconBits

BaconBits

    Light heavyweight champion of my house

  • Members
  • 4,024 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:West Mifflin
  • Interests:Medium pimping.

Posted 05 December 2017 - 07:03 PM

I disagree. They are the same in that the big 3 all have the same profile driving thru the corner. Are the set ups different ? There is no question. YES. DS2 looks beyond what most see and tries to understand what each corner of the car is going thru and what combination makes it work. I applaud the guy for putting it out there. As I am sure most wouldn't have any idea what adjustments do to the other corners on the car going thru motion. Reading a set up book can tell you one thing. But, once that vehicle is I'm motion everything changes. It's also why so few crew chiefs get it right on a consistent basis.



You are an even bigger idiot than he is.
Follow me on Twitter: @JoshBayko

#12 dirtstudent2

dirtstudent2

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,324 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:.

Posted 05 December 2017 - 10:13 PM

I wrote a long winded post responding, went back and read again what I was responding to and I am able to give a short reply.

 

BaconBits you wrote "His big problem is that he tries to equate his theories across all divisions, when none of the headline divisions are even close to similar."  Aside from all divisions having cars which look different and some having adjustments others don't, what is different besides their ability to get rotation out of the stagger on their solid axle?

 

Except for cars with lesser ability to use stagger having to 'key' in on a balanced setup via increasing use of their right front tire, please help me see a difference and to be a little less of an idiot.  Your calling me a idiot because I don't see the differences.  I'm explaining to you as jo73 defending me tried to explain, that I see the differences in construction though I don't know verbatim all the parts and adjustments.

 

This train of thought just arrived in the station.  :)   How far away we are from having a mutual understanding is as close as you can come to understanding and accepting race cars which turn both left and right operate within the Bible of racing and engineering.  :)  



#13 dirtstudent2

dirtstudent2

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,324 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:.

Posted 05 December 2017 - 10:40 PM

Before bed I need to add one thing.  I'm on here for fun and entertainment and to get others ideas on how oval race cars work.  If it takes being an idiot to learn something I'm up to the task.  I really don't have a grip on the name calling bull shit.  You told jo73 I have a problem not seeing a difference.  Is that much different a problem then not being able to see the similarities? 



#14 dirtstudent2

dirtstudent2

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,324 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:.

Posted 06 December 2017 - 09:57 AM

deleted


Edited by dirtstudent2, 06 December 2017 - 10:37 AM.


#15 dirtstudent2

dirtstudent2

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,324 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:.

Posted 06 December 2017 - 10:14 AM

Back to fun at least my fun.  :)

 

When you see a driver sawing the steering wheel of a sprint car coming off a turn what are they doing?

 

1.  It's to get a feel for the track coming off the corner?

 

2.  It's just something drivers do and it makes no difference?

 

3.  It some how relates to this thread and it's something done to change how the car is able to preform coming off the corner?

 

The correct answer is 3.  Sawing on the steering wheel changes how the car preforms coming off the corner.

 

 

Yes Bacon Bits sawing the steering wheel coming off the corner does the same across all divisions of oval dirt racing.  This particular thing is not something about how cars don't look the same and are different, it's about how they are similar in how they work. 



#16 blue by you

blue by you

    Race Fan

  • Members
  • 583 posts

Posted 06 December 2017 - 11:32 AM

sawing on the wheel is done to keep the car under them....... an stagger is used on the rear tires to help the car turn in the turns.



#17 dirtstudent2

dirtstudent2

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,324 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:.

Posted 06 December 2017 - 01:23 PM

IMHO, very good Sir.  Do you see how the first post I made in this thread explains why it helps keep the car under them?

 

Just in case you don't and to help Bacon Bits see why there are not just physical differences across divisions but also similarities i'll explain it. 

 

Sawing on the wheel inputs driver effort to reduce grip at the front tires.  That reduces the conflict for control of direction between the fronts and the right rear tire.  Reduce the fight between the fronts and the right rear and the right rear has more grip available for both acceleration and to hold the back end in keeping the car under them. 

 

I have looked on the web many times and until this thread the reason it alters performance seems to have never been explained.  Not on the web, in any engineering paper or dynamics written about race cars which turn both left and right.  I've found and I think you will find a lot about yes it works or no it doesn't and a lot of explained technique and descriptions of it's use, but nothing about why it works until this thread.  If someone finds something prior on the web i'd be happy to read it and to learn I was not the first to come up with the reason why it works.  I'd also like to hear reasons other then I'm an idiot about why my explanation is wrong and i'll learn something.



#18 brad hibbard

brad hibbard

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,145 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:poland ohio

Posted 06 December 2017 - 05:03 PM

Please keep up your thought process DS2 and please keep sharing with us

those who insult you can simply pass over the posts if they choose not to consider your thoughts and ideas

I personally usually think you are way out there with your thoughts initially but after stopping to think and analyze on my own I can usually see and gain some knowledge from what you post

 

just a couple examples of set up change that help me stay open minded

20 years ago if someone told you to run a weight on your LR hub you would have thought them to be crazy----but now there are rules preventing it because it can be a tremendous advantage 

20 years ago if a top running competitor told you they do NOT scale their car you would think they were lying ---but now the top guys use spring smashers and tie down machines to set up their cars----I have been in some very high end shops where they do not even have a set of scales anymore

 

DS2 is ahead of his time and I listen when he talks

 

thank you DS2

Brad



#19 jo73

jo73

    Insane Racer

  • Members
  • 1,340 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pittsburgh
  • Interests:Life, Dirt racing, H-D, Golf, Corvettes, Street Rods.

Posted 06 December 2017 - 07:04 PM

Keep reading all your subscribed to services josh...but remember one thing. Rumley and JD got together and he came up with a weird piece of metal that no one could understand. A guy that looked outside the box. How did that work for him ? He's been brought into rocket and Longhorn both. Two chassis manufactures that also needed to see outside the box. Most of us including you would not understand today's chassis set up if it hit us in the face. Rumley, Ricky Warner, Teo Pro Car, all made other crew chiefs in there respected classes break tradition. They all played catch up. But each one of those 3 are still searching for the next advantage.

#20 old man d

old man d

    Fast Newbie

  • Members
  • 344 posts

Posted 06 December 2017 - 07:38 PM

DS2 keep up with the posts. At least you got people thinking and talking about racing.







0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users