Jump to content





Photo

Job for dirtstudent2


  • Please log in to reply
40 replies to this topic

#1 brad hibbard

brad hibbard

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,177 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:poland ohio

Posted 15 December 2017 - 11:15 AM

Paul, (DS2)

with your detailed research capabilities and extensive explanations, I feel you are an excellent person to assist us in preventive methods to be safe when using, transporting, and transferring fuel.

 

Last year a friend and business associate was severely burned in an accident that happened because of static electricity and fuel.

I had a chance to meet with him at PRI where we discussed the incident in length.

 

we have both done research and composed theories as to what happened and how to prevent this type of thing in the future.

However we agree that there is still too many unknowns.

 

any help from your vast resources is appreciated.

if you can view the Race-1 banner at the top of this page you can click the banner and then click again at the Race-1 site  to see what we have written so far

 

I would give you the direct link but for some reason it does not come up when I post on racestud

 

thank you

Brad   




 

#2 54warrior

54warrior

    Late Model Fan

  • Members
  • 1,954 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Earth
  • Interests:Late Models, Trucks, Jeeps, Motorcycles, Quads

Posted 15 December 2017 - 01:01 PM

LINK

 

Good topic!



#3 blue by you

blue by you

    Race Fan

  • Members
  • 662 posts

Posted 15 December 2017 - 02:04 PM

he's your man!!......just not sure you'll understand it when he's done. :lol:



#4 brad hibbard

brad hibbard

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,177 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:poland ohio

Posted 15 December 2017 - 04:30 PM

thank you for the link 54warrior ---I am missing something in my settings to be able to do that

 

I agree blue by you----he does get over the top sometimes but he is very knowledgable and I bet he rises to the challenge and helps at least my awareness

 

Brad



#5 jo73

jo73

    Insane Racer

  • Members
  • 1,459 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pittsburgh
  • Interests:Life, Dirt racing, H-D, Golf, Corvettes, Street Rods.

Posted 15 December 2017 - 04:47 PM

Good for DS2. I bet some of the trolls are chewing on the seat cushions.

#6 dirtstudent2

dirtstudent2

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,447 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:.

Posted 15 December 2017 - 08:31 PM

Grounding is not possible when purchasing gas. 

 

You can't fix lazy I don't have to take the jugs out of the back to fill um or I ain't going to screw up my shinny new or good pickup truck by spilling gas on it or scratching it with the pump.   

 

The only way you can fix lazy is with a kick in the back side and the only way to fix stupid and ignorant is by education. 

 

If you can I think fixing the problem will be no different then starting a rumor.  Hit as many racers, fans, friends, folks and everyone else you can with the story and hope it spreads.  Maybe a youtube horror flick gone viral of the back end of a pickup truck exploding in flames could get the word out?  How about contacting the show Myth Busters about it, if it's still being filmed?  Seems to me I saw a new one not long ago.

 

I don't have a real answer for how to fix it.  But the only electrical fix will be bonding as described in the LINK, even if only done by human touch.  LOL, yep your right I do have over 40 years experience using esd prevention and I was tested on my knowledge of it annually by my employer.  :)  


Edited by dirtstudent2, 15 December 2017 - 08:33 PM.


#7 brad hibbard

brad hibbard

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,177 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:poland ohio

Posted 15 December 2017 - 09:41 PM

Paul,

to say the least --I am disappointed in your response...

It actually seems as if you are making a joke or light of the topic.

trust me this has an impact on myself and others.

I was hoping for some factual information from you.

If the topic is not in your realm of information --that is fine but please do not degrade it to an "oh well" topic.

I expect you will respond quickly ---but I will be out of town until Sunday  and not see any responses until then.

I hope that you will respect the situation and not make fun of it

 

Brad


Edited by brad hibbard, 15 December 2017 - 09:43 PM.


#8 brad hibbard

brad hibbard

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,177 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:poland ohio

Posted 15 December 2017 - 09:42 PM

maybe ---I just didn't understand your response---in which case I apologise

 

Brad



#9 cdm

cdm

    Member

  • Members
  • 197 posts

Posted 15 December 2017 - 11:50 PM

More details on what/when you are trying to prevent the problem would help. Filling fuel jugs? Filling the racecar?

#10 dirtstudent2

dirtstudent2

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,447 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:.

Posted 16 December 2017 - 09:25 AM

IMHO, grounding is not possible and the only thing which can help is what is referred to in the LINK as bonding.  Bonding is what you do to putting things at the same electrical potential of zero.  ESD(electro static discharge) is a very costly problem which causes microscopic and other burning of connections within electronic circuits like system boards, cards and everything else electronic.  The solution is when you work on something you place it on a conductive mat and connect by a cable between the mat and yourself with the part or parts your working on placed on and connected to the mat.  Once no potential is established between you and the part you can work on it.  If your working in a large computer or storage farm environment, to prevent ESD you will connect yourself to the chassis of the equipment you are working by a cord clamped on the frame of what your working on located within a rack.  That's what is supposed to be done but in the electronic world and even in some training video's and manuals you can find common reference to just touching or holding the frame of what your going to work with being good enough.  I one time threw out of one of my customer GM Lordstown complex in fact a support person there to help me find a problem because he did not use his grounding strap while working on equipment I was responsible for. 

 

You offered a problem and I offered a possible solution.  Grounding will not work and at the track expecting race car, trailer, fuel and mechanic to be wired together(bonded) is not a viable expectation.   With that in mind and relating to the piss poor slob electronic ESD prevention method of touch and maintaining touch I then went and tried to show how at least a touch method of grounding might become common practice.  Ignorance and stupid were not used in joke but as intentionally picked words to stress and cause others to remember the example.  The reason the back of a pickup can explode while filling jugs is most likely because who ever is filling them never caused the static electrical potential to be discharged prior to filling.  The buildup occurs when you move getting out your pickup, walking to the pump and even operating the pump.  I'm sure you know if you get out of your vehicle and touch it while going to the pump you will get a static shock.  But if you go to the pump it doesn't happen and it doesn't happen because while going to the pump both you and the pump become "grounded" and are at the same electrical potential.  Sometimes if you have rubber sole shoes on you may even experience static electricity when you touch the pump.  But it doesn't take much to set your level of potential to the same potential as the pump, so that static discharge is not likely to happen.  From the pickup story what I saw happening is who ever was fueling jugs in the back got out of their truck and first went back to take the lid off the jugs for filling.  That's fine as soon as he touched the unopened jugs he put himself and the jugs at the same electrical potential.  If there was a discharge the jugs were closed and no problem.  If there were fumes available at that time then there could have been a problem.  The jugs are now opened and he again MOVED building up static which was most likely put at zero potential.  Next you take the the pump handle and move it to the pickup with open jugs to be filled.  If there was left over fuel in the jugs that fuel would be evaporating and possibly filling the jugs with fuel vapor just waiting for a source of ignition.  In my scenario the person filling the jugs for what ever reason was being very careful not to scratch or get fuel on the pickup, trying their best to only have the fuel go into the jugs.  What then in my opinion happened was because they never made contact with the pickup or jugs leveling the electrical potential, a spark occurred and most likely caused the vapor buildup in the jugs to explode.  Gas burns vapor explodes.  Jugs build up with vapor either prior to being filled or during filling and if you never made connection to the jugs or at least the pickup truck your going can get an explosion.  Simply turning from the pump and raising your arms to a position to put fuel in the jugs can cause a static build up and discharge.

 

The off color story is the education part to make readers think about what might happen.  Big racer/drivers often think about the advantages little horse jockey drivers have.  The reality of it is most of the little horse jockey drivers are small but most are also strong like small pit bulls.  Fuel jugs with their plastic container can weigh as much as 40 pounds and most are going to use both hand when filling a car from a 40 pound jug.  My suggestion mandating the use of 3 gallon jugs with handles so a jug could be dispensed into the car with one hand was real.  Lighter jugs might mean it will be more likely for racers to at least touch the car before fueling which would set the electrical potential to zero.

 

You just read again how I think an explosion in a pickup truck when filling fuel jugs can occur.  If this makes one person bond with the pickup truck stopping an accident from happening the off color is worth the effort.  I do think a staged youtube video where the possibility is shown and explained would go viral among the racing community.    I don't know if I my explanation of how I think an explosion can occur is the same as what you all came up with, I offered my thoughts not having a clue what you discussed or thought about.  If this all so called joke or not makes racers think about and do something to set their electrical potential to zero by touching, BEFORE FUELING it not only educated but caused others to remember the story.   

 

Ignorance is not a funny word or a word I used to be funny, it means someone does not have needed knowledge and nothing else.  Maybe this thread will help spread knowledge.

 

stupid or dumb is when you have the knowledge and still error by not acting in a needed way.

 

The reference saying it has happened in pickups with and without a bed liner means nothing except to say even if the jugs are in a bed liner there can still be a difference in potential between the jugs and what contacts the jugs.  I don't think it's possible for a spark to come from the pump, I think it had to come from movement made while filling the jugs or moving to fill the jugs.  I would guess if your not in contact or bonded to the truck and jugs, just the motion of moving from filling one jug to another could cause a spark.  There ain't no way to fix the problem other then making people aware of the possibility.  Solution would be to make everyone take what there filling out of the pickup or trunk and put it on the ground next to the pump to be filled, but that ain't going to happen. 



#11 dirtstudent2

dirtstudent2

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,447 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:.

Posted 16 December 2017 - 09:43 AM

maybe ---I just didn't understand your response---in which case I apologise

 

Brad

 

You have no reason to apologise Brad.  I respect your words and will never read them in light of something needing an apology.  I on the other hand I do often screw up writing and I do apologise for it,.   


Edited by dirtstudent2, 16 December 2017 - 09:44 AM.


#12 dirtstudent2

dirtstudent2

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,447 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:.

Posted 16 December 2017 - 10:06 AM

Here's a good video:  

 

Here's another way of looking at it:  

 

 

Here's one from the standpoint of someone who pays the bills caused by slob esd procedures:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbDwcGL3yAk

 

 

Again it's all about getting people to think about it and do something.


Edited by dirtstudent2, 16 December 2017 - 11:25 AM.


#13 dirtstudent2

dirtstudent2

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,447 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:.

Posted 16 December 2017 - 12:35 PM

I found a youtube video showing exactly what I tried to explain.

 

In the video the lady gets out of here car then touches the car dropping here ESD potential between here and the car to zero.  She then starts fueling without a problem.  BUT she then goes back in the car rubs on the seat and builds up an ESD charge.  After that she gets out of the car not touching anything to again bring here electrical potential to zero.  What happens next is without touching anything else she then touches the pump handle which releases her stored ESD potential causing the fire.  If she would have touched either the pumping unit or the car first after getting out before touching the pump handle, the fire would not have happened.

 

YOU GOT TO PUT YOUR esd POTENTIAL TO ZERO BEFORE FUELING.  How ever you do it doesn't matter you got to do it. 

 

edit:  in the video her use of the cell phone had nothing at all to do with causing the fire, what caused the fire was her building up a static charge by moving in the car


Edited by dirtstudent2, 16 December 2017 - 12:37 PM.


#14 D1RT

D1RT

    Member

  • Members
  • 3,106 posts

Posted 16 December 2017 - 02:10 PM

Why is grounding not possible??

I work in many industrial plants and have seen many tanker trucks with various volatile chemicals and fuels connect a ground cable from the truck to a grounding rod before loading and off loading for this very reason.The vessel is also grounded.

Heck some plants we work in we have to ground the work trucks and gators before starting them.



#15 dirtstudent2

dirtstudent2

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,447 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:.

Posted 16 December 2017 - 04:01 PM

Why is grounding not possible??

I work in many industrial plants and have seen many tanker trucks with various volatile chemicals and fuels connect a ground cable from the truck to a grounding rod before loading and off loading for this very reason.The vessel is also grounded.

Heck some plants we work in we have to ground the work trucks and gators before starting them.

 

From what you said it is possible.    I did not know trucks did that.  I'll hedge on it now that I've learned from you and say I don't see tracks putting in grounding stakes for racers nor see it happening at each and every gas station.  ya know I didn't post the url to the lady video, I'll go see if I can find it again.

 

This whole thing is going to change my ways.  I'm in the habit cold or not to sit in the car while the pump runs.  I have never given it a thought that when I get out of my car I need to discharge to the car before ending fueling.  I often do things exactly like the lady in the flick did.

 

 

found it:  check this out.   

 

here's another:  


Edited by dirtstudent2, 17 December 2017 - 07:54 AM.


#16 jo73

jo73

    Insane Racer

  • Members
  • 1,459 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pittsburgh
  • Interests:Life, Dirt racing, H-D, Golf, Corvettes, Street Rods.

Posted 16 December 2017 - 05:37 PM

Here's a little tid bit of information. Do you know if a gas station employee sees someone fueling jugs in the back of a vehicle, any vehicle, he is suppose to turn the pumps off immediately ? I didn't. Ask a fire inspector, being most of these type jobs have people that really can't see all the pumps and each individual. I was doing exactly that at a get go on mt. royal blvd. Next thing the pump got turned off and as I discovered it was the fire chief who told the employee to turn it off. He came out and gave me the explanation as to why and the dangers. Lesson learned. Gas fumes can create 1 hell of a bang. Ask a boat owner why they open the hatch to the engine ? I witnessed a boat burn, supposedly someone got burnt pretty bad.

#17 FanJim24

FanJim24

    Fast Newbie

  • Members
  • 494 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 16 December 2017 - 09:52 PM

Brad, he is serious, and on a good train of thoght. I think he is learning a bit as he's going. ESD is electro-static discharge, (static sparking). That sounds like exactly what you are talking about. 


My dad drove late models in the early 70's at North Hills, Butler, Mercer, Blanket Hill, and occasionally Tri City. We won the last late model track championship at Blanket Hill. 


#18 ex9Ccrewguy

ex9Ccrewguy

    Cool Newbie

  • Members
  • 91 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 17 December 2017 - 09:49 AM

im in hvac.. when I replace a circuit board in a furnace I ALWAYS touch my hand to the furnace cabinet to eliminate any static charge built up prior to handling the new circuit board...  whatever you choose to call it   grounding bonding  its elimination of the static charge



#19 brad hibbard

brad hibbard

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,177 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:poland ohio

Posted 17 December 2017 - 02:56 PM

I was out of town for the weekend but I am glad to see this topic has inspired some healthy conversation.

 

I guess what is most important is that we have created some awareness about something that we all have been careless of at some point.

Sometimes $hit just happens but being a little smarter about why it happens just might keep it from happening.

 

I will review everyone's replies this evening

I do appreciate the comments from everyone and the work put in by DS2

 

Brad



#20 FanJim24

FanJim24

    Fast Newbie

  • Members
  • 494 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 17 December 2017 - 03:38 PM

Got me thinking about fueling my passenger car. 


My dad drove late models in the early 70's at North Hills, Butler, Mercer, Blanket Hill, and occasionally Tri City. We won the last late model track championship at Blanket Hill. 





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users