Jump to content





Photo

Job for dirtstudent2


  • Please log in to reply
40 replies to this topic

#21 ex9Ccrewguy

ex9Ccrewguy

    Cool Newbie

  • Members
  • 91 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 17 December 2017 - 05:32 PM

and the guy we bought our drums of alky said ALWAYS ground the drum (steel ) , he would NEVER use a plastic drum for bulk sales... but drove home the grounding issue..




 

#22 TCM29

TCM29

    Fast Newbie

  • Members
  • 254 posts

Posted 17 December 2017 - 09:02 PM

This reminds me of a common problem associated with inside warehouse type forklifts, especially when certain polyurethane or non-marking tires are used. I have been associated with this industry for over 45 years and remember a particular application when the lift trucks traveled a long span (VW/Sony Plant), When the operator dismounted and touched a rack it would throw a spark not unlike an HEI plug wire! Initially it was thought the problem was because it was an electric lift, and some novice techs actually tore one apart, only to find out it was the poly tires. This happened more recently at a customer using LPG powered trucks and this time the battery exploded when the operator stopped and raised the hood for some reason. This time non marking tires were the culprit. Static straps never work, as they get torn off, but a small trailing chain placed on the underside seemed to correct the problem. It would seem to me that major oil companies like Marathon (Speedway), and others would have to be very proactive on this high liability matter and could provide even more insight. Good luck, and be safe. 



#23 brad hibbard

brad hibbard

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,177 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:poland ohio

Posted 18 December 2017 - 08:16 AM

after reviewing everyone's posts, I am happy to see that we have created some awareness and education into the topic.

 

the incident that motivated my research into this, happed 1 year ago to friend of mine with nearly the same business arrangement as Race-1 so it definitely hit home for me.

 

We feel as if a weather condition was the key to the explosion but other surrounding procedures had to play in.

 

the friend that this happened to is a highly experienced and knowledgeable person and has told me he is planning on putting the entire accident into words for all to see over the Christmas season.-----I will certainly share that here.

 

until then here is a quick version of the accident.

 

below zero degree day

5 gallon plastic fuel container stored outside

inside 70 degree dyno fuel tank

inside plastic funnel with filter

 

he needed fuel to dyno an engine so he grabs the fuel from outside and goes in to add a few gallons to the fuel cell

because there is a filter in the funnel the fuel backs up in the funnel somewhat (not spilling just backing up)

the fuel can is contacting the funnel during filling

at the instant he pulls back to let the funnel drain the explosion occurred

 

he has done exactly the same thing a thousand times before as have I

 

one of the key components here (we feel) is the weather---it was below zero outside and of course no humidity (very dry)

 

however fuel is absolutely transferred in these conditions so we know there are other contributing factors--the weather merely enhanced the danger

 

a quick take away from the weather scenario would be something that a couple posters have already mentioned here "refueling your vehicle"

this time of the year sets the stage to higher risk of static explosion during refueling your everyday driver just due to weather.

add in cell phones, leaving the vehicle run because its cold outside and numerous other habits that are common dangers.

I am personally guilty of all of them and more.

 

I am changing my practices and hope you do also

 

thank you to everyone adding thoughts and creating awareness

 

brad  



#24 dirtstudent2

dirtstudent2

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,447 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:.

Posted 18 December 2017 - 11:34 AM

Reading brought tears to my eyes and new fears to my thoughts about fueling.  I'm so very sorry for your friends accident.

 

I thought I had a grip on the ESD thing but reading tells me I don't know enough about it.  This is only a guess Brad.  Researching now I just learned liquids flowing in pipes and through "filters" can generate static electricity.  Until now reading on the web I figured the spark would be going from the person to what ever held the flammable liquid.  If the funnel and filter generated a static electricity buildup when Methanol flowed, when the fuel pouring stopped and the jug was being removed I can visualize a spark going from the funnel back to the now not physically connected jug.  To cause ignition it doesn't matter if the spark is going from the person to the liquid or container or from the container(funnel) towards the person.

 

I still think that if the person fueling, the fuel jug and what if being filled are electrically connected via a strap between each ESD will not happen because there is no potential.  I'm no electrical engineer and would not begin to suggest how to make the connection.  We were required to test our ESD straps and mats occasionally for resistance.  I don't remember the specifics but I do thein there was some resistance required though small.  Because of not knowing the "facts" about the resistance I was told to check for, I would not begin to suggest how to make what is required to set the electrical potential to zero between a person, jug and what is being filled.  I did try to point out the "slob fix" value of making a touch connection.  I'm not suggesting "touch" as a fix, only that it's probably better then nothing.  But I also fear maybe a "slob fix" of touch could cause a spark and that's not good nor a solution. 

 

There's a big difference between proper procedures and someone saying "hey this is what I do to prevent it and never had a problem".  In my work I >>>>NEVER, NEVER, NEVER<<<< relied on the words of anyone telling me a fix using words like probably, should, ought to, works for me or other similar so called help.    

 

here's the url to what I read that brought up liquids passing through a filter generating a static buildup. Makes fueling into a funnel scary without proper grounding:     http://people.clarks...ign/flamliq.pdf



#25 dirtstudent2

dirtstudent2

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,447 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:.

Posted 18 December 2017 - 11:47 AM

Here another look at the possibility I'm now seeing. 

 

Your filling the funnel and the filter is flowing building up static electricity.   I think it would be normal to pour slowly into the funnel watching the buildup of fuel above the filter.  I also think during the filling it would be normal to control the flow out of the jug keeping it going just enough that a layer of fuel stayed above the filter. 

 

I think it would also be normal that when the funnel above the filter got built up with fuel you would stop pouring for a bit of time holding the jug above the funnel looking to see how fast the fuel was going through the filter. 

 

That would keep your jug in an area above the fuel for maybe a time long enough for more static build up.  Then when you were satisfied you put enough fuel in and what was left above the filter would go down not over flow the tank, you'd move the jug away from above the funnel.  That's when I'm thinking a spark might occur when static buildup in the funnel went to the jug you were removing.



#26 dirtstudent2

dirtstudent2

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,447 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:.

Posted 18 December 2017 - 11:58 AM

Just had another thought about it

 

When race cars are fueled at the track there's probably always a metal ring for the fuel cap the funnel is placed into.   Did the tank for the dyno have a metal ring or connection the funnel would have been in contact with when fueling.  I'm thinking maybe the tank for the dyno has a plastic or rubber cap and ring/fitting for it's fuel cap?

 

Is the tank opening supplying your dyno conductive or does it have maybe a plastic type of cap/fitting on it?

 

 

edit:  The above got me thinking maybe the metal ring where the funnel goes in might be insulated from a car even though it's metal.  It could be insulated because the fuel bladder insulates the ring from the car or tank?  Probably at least one nut and bolt fixing the bladder to the tank and ring is touching the tank making a ground?  But then again I just wrote about how I don't like solutions with PROBABLY in it.  Especially when it would just take one instance where all nuts and bolts attaching the bladder and tank together didn't make contact, to have a problem.

 

You all are getting into sprints and Rush is requiring fuel be bought from a designated supplier.  I've never heard of a fire on a sprint when being fueled, but just because I've never heard of it doesn't mean someone else hasn't info on it happening?

 

Maybe you all(Rush) need to do something to insure the funnel has and electrical path of discharge between the metal ring for inserting the fuel cap and the car.  Yes I think even with the bladder at least one fastener is going to provide a grounding path, but there's NOTHING in place to guarantee it and maybe there should be?      


Edited by dirtstudent2, 18 December 2017 - 12:11 PM.


#27 brad hibbard

brad hibbard

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,177 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:poland ohio

Posted 18 December 2017 - 12:14 PM

Paul,

your last statement about a bolt from the filler neck being grounded is exactly what we were told from ATL 

we do have that statement at the bottom of the page on our website tab about the topic

 

Brad


Edited by brad hibbard, 18 December 2017 - 02:13 PM.


#28 ex9Ccrewguy

ex9Ccrewguy

    Cool Newbie

  • Members
  • 91 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 18 December 2017 - 07:33 PM

have you ever seen the signs at gas stations the gas can should be on the ground when filling



#29 jo73

jo73

    Insane Racer

  • Members
  • 1,459 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pittsburgh
  • Interests:Life, Dirt racing, H-D, Golf, Corvettes, Street Rods.

Posted 18 December 2017 - 08:38 PM

Good job DS2

#30 dirtstudent2

dirtstudent2

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,447 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:.

Posted 19 December 2017 - 08:27 AM

Good job DS2

 

Thank you but not really a good job because of lack of knowledge.

 

The more I looked into it the more I learned how much I didn't know about it and how complex it is.

 

It may even be one of those things where the obvious fix of just having connectivity Isn't good enough and can lead to ignition.  It's reading about the need for resistance in the grounding or bonding circuit which I'm not at all sure about.  When an ESD strap is used working on electronic equipment I think "engineers" may have built in resistance to make sure the discharge when potential is leveled without spark, traveled in a specific direction.  How that could be a factor in bonding fuel container, tank and person >>> I don't know<<<<.  It may be one of those things where if YOU DON'T KNOW you can get hurt.  I hope there's an electrical engineer on here or someone who knows one that might add some expert advice on it.  I also think Rush instead of only going with what a tank manufacture offers should also ask an electrical engineer about it.   

 

 

Another thing I found researching is it appears any crate Late Model bladder per rules that is over 5 years old either must be replaced or certified for another 2 years by the manufacture.  But then with the reduced engine cost crate late racing I'm sure everyone is using a car less then 5 years old.  :)

 

Per Rush rules I would think racers should furnish Rush car serial number and make to prove the car is less then 5 years old.  And if not to uphold their rules they should require fuel cell bladders be removed for inspection and proof of age. 

 

Sprint appears to be a totally different thing with the rule on bladders only being a suggestion to manufactures.  The racer and Rush doesn't know if a sprint tank is within their rules unless it comes from a manufacture who at least says they follow the rules stated during manufacturing.  Or I didn't understand what I read correctly, which is likely.

 

 

Any way, the grounding/bonding thing is both potentially very dangerous and from what I've read is very complicated.    


Edited by dirtstudent2, 19 December 2017 - 09:04 AM.


#31 FanJim24

FanJim24

    Fast Newbie

  • Members
  • 494 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 19 December 2017 - 05:34 PM

 

Thank you but not really a good job because of lack of knowledge.

 

The more I looked into it the more I learned how much I didn't know about it and how complex it is.

 

It may even be one of those things where the obvious fix of just having connectivity Isn't good enough and can lead to ignition.  It's reading about the need for resistance in the grounding or bonding circuit which I'm not at all sure about.  When an ESD strap is used working on electronic equipment I think "engineers" may have built in resistance to make sure the discharge when potential is leveled without spark, traveled in a specific direction.  How that could be a factor in bonding fuel container, tank and person >>> I don't know<<<<.  It may be one of those things where if YOU DON'T KNOW you can get hurt.  I hope there's an electrical engineer on here or someone who knows one that might add some expert advice on it.  I also think Rush instead of only going with what a tank manufacture offers should also ask an electrical engineer about it.   

 

 

Another thing I found researching is it appears any crate Late Model bladder per rules that is over 5 years old either must be replaced or certified for another 2 years by the manufacture.  But then with the reduced engine cost crate late racing I'm sure everyone is using a car less then 5 years old.  :)

 

Per Rush rules I would think racers should furnish Rush car serial number and make to prove the car is less then 5 years old.  And if not to uphold their rules they should require fuel cell bladders be removed for inspection and proof of age. 

 

Sprint appears to be a totally different thing with the rule on bladders only being a suggestion to manufactures.  The racer and Rush doesn't know if a sprint tank is within their rules unless it comes from a manufacture who at least says they follow the rules stated during manufacturing.  Or I didn't understand what I read correctly, which is likely.

 

 

Any way, the grounding/bonding thing is both potentially very dangerous and from what I've read is very complicated.    

I think resistance does 2 things, reduces the current, (amount of potential spark that can jump), and protect the human's heart from being the best path to ground. 


My dad drove late models in the early 70's at North Hills, Butler, Mercer, Blanket Hill, and occasionally Tri City. We won the last late model track championship at Blanket Hill. 


#32 brad hibbard

brad hibbard

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,177 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:poland ohio

Posted 19 December 2017 - 07:04 PM

Paul (DS2),

i see you found an opportunity to throw a few digs at a sanction racing series.

one thing that would be hard to fault that series on is being thorough.

I think we know an individual that tends to have a similar quality---am I correct?

i don't want to start any pissing matches---

just saying this has been a great topic and has created awareness in people I would have never thought.

If our conversation saves 1 person pain and suffering it is a win!!!

 

lets try to keep the conversation---education and awareness moving forward

 

Brad 



#33 brad hibbard

brad hibbard

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,177 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:poland ohio

Posted 19 December 2017 - 07:27 PM

just to show you how this topic has gained awareness---

i have a friend who has a landscape company, call me to discuss his situation with salt spreaders and snow blowers

he was also concerned with how they store and transfer fuel in the summer months with mowers

 

I am sure there is not a person out there reading this that feels they have been completely safe during fueling 

 

I want to revert back to Ryan Brown's statement----"there is NO time to react"--- "we must prevent"

undoubtedly, everyone of us will continue to do things that we shouldn't with fuel but just maybe we can be a bit safer in the future after this discussion 

 

Brad



#34 FanJim24

FanJim24

    Fast Newbie

  • Members
  • 494 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 19 December 2017 - 09:16 PM

 

Thank you but not really a good job because of lack of knowledge.

...really good job because you are contributing good information to the conversation, and we are all learning as we go. 


My dad drove late models in the early 70's at North Hills, Butler, Mercer, Blanket Hill, and occasionally Tri City. We won the last late model track championship at Blanket Hill. 


#35 racer67x

racer67x

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,309 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:duh?

Posted 20 December 2017 - 05:50 PM

so whats the summary of all this..? we need touch off on the metal of what we are dumping gas into before removing the can..or before removing the funnel? how can a fire like this be prevented with the average racer? or are we okay as long as the temp is above freezing?.....maybe some simple guidelines to follow?

#36 dirtstudent2

dirtstudent2

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,447 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:.

Posted 20 December 2017 - 07:51 PM

i thought I at least half way understood it having been tested on my knowledge of proper ESD procedures and to make sure I know accepted procedures to test the ESD prevention equipment I used for 40 years.  After reading and studying more all I knew is how to follow company procedures.  

 

There's no way from here on I would even suggest what to do.  I know for certain this old fart sure ain't going to go sit in his car again while it's being fueled.  And as long as I'm the one who puts the fuel funnel in the tank before fueling and ground myself to the car before dumping fuel in, I ain't going to worry about it because that's about all I can do, with what little I know.

 

Truth be we need an electrical engineer to throw ideas and procedures at us.  My neighbor's one and incharge of a lot of power plants for a good part of the north/east/little bit south of the country.  He's into Mopar and next time I see him I'll ask him about what he thinks should be done while gathering up fuel and fueling the car.

 

It's true about anything you look into that seems simple is in reality complicated.  What ain't complicated is what were wondering about is what the heck am I supposed to do?  Right now I sure don't know.   Sure hope someone gets an electrical engineer to give us some answers.

 

As Brad is saying, one error and you ain't got time to even say ah shit. 


Edited by dirtstudent2, 20 December 2017 - 07:54 PM.


#37 jo73

jo73

    Insane Racer

  • Members
  • 1,459 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pittsburgh
  • Interests:Life, Dirt racing, H-D, Golf, Corvettes, Street Rods.

Posted 20 December 2017 - 08:05 PM

After following this it really makes you think. How many times after getting out of the vehicle, you touch it and get that little hit of current.

#38 brad hibbard

brad hibbard

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,177 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:poland ohio

Posted 20 December 2017 - 08:45 PM

I am absolutely on the same thought process as racer67x

I would like to see a bullet point sheet of do's and don'ts for 4 specific situations

 

  • refueling of everyday driver (commercial gas stations)
  • refueling of race vehicles
  • storage of fuel
  • transfer of fuel from drum/can to another drum/can

maybe if we take one at a time it will be easier

the easiest bullet point should be the first one ---refueling our everyday drivers as there should be accurate information displayed at the pump or at least easily accessed in searches ---we just need to abide by what we read as fact

 

Brad 



#39 FanJim24

FanJim24

    Fast Newbie

  • Members
  • 494 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 20 December 2017 - 09:43 PM

It sounds to me like using plastic is asking for trouble, just like with open electronics, which makes sense. Most plastics are poor conductors, so they like to build ES charges and discharge at inopportune times.  


My dad drove late models in the early 70's at North Hills, Butler, Mercer, Blanket Hill, and occasionally Tri City. We won the last late model track championship at Blanket Hill. 


#40 54warrior

54warrior

    Late Model Fan

  • Members
  • 1,954 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Earth
  • Interests:Late Models, Trucks, Jeeps, Motorcycles, Quads

Posted 22 December 2017 - 11:21 AM

I am 35 and this is the first time I've ever heard or seen any information about this stuff.   I filled cans in the bed of my truck, multiple times this summer.   You can bet that I won't be doing that anymore.






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users