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What Engine should a low budget sprint car racer build?


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#1 dirtstudent2

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Posted 30 December 2017 - 05:47 PM

Sorry I didn't get my drunk post deleted in time even though some have seen merit in it.

 

The problem with new sprint racers is what and where to race and where to spend their money on an engine.  There being pulled on from all sides because both promoters and tracks know the fan attraction of sprint car racing.

 

If your new at it you really can just like the old days buy and engine out of a bone yard, throw injection and a mag on it and go winged sprint car racing.  We all assume your building your own car out of swap meet parts especially with being able to buy a kit for cheap at swap meets.  But what engine to put into your race car is the question.  My suggestion is if your going to throw cash into the game with a low budget car and junk throw away tires you look into building an ASCS legal 360 with bigger injection that you will need to sleeve.  Actually if you look into it you can find the right muffler pipe for cheap to sleeve with only needing to flair the top end.  You'll not only end up with a Patriot and Empire sprint legal engine(someone please correct me if I'm wrong) but the ASCS heads are basically 12x heads of years past.  Those same heads later put on a 410 block won't put you with the flashy stuff but might get you a win on the slick tracks around here.  

 

The net of it is it doesn't make one lick of sense throwing your money at 305 or crate when you can for the same or less money go run with 360's and 410's which at least pay half ass tow money even with the cheap not caring about the racer tracks we have in this area.

 

I have NEVER BASHED the racing and quality of drivers racing crate.  My only complaint is it gets TOO unnecessarily DEEP into RACERS POCKETS.  IMHO there are a TON more racers and want to be racers out there who can't afford to FIT into the profit scheme of push parts and venues down racers throats.  If someone would please tell me what's wrong with having 410 B mains to sort out what you all are calling the junk, I'd like to hear it.  As a fan I'd much rather see B mains with a 24 car starting field then this bull jack up the purse and drop the lineup to 20 cars.  Would someone please tell me WHO THE HECK INSTIGATED THE I WANT MORE MONEY FOR RACING, which got all this lower car count started in the first place?  WHO WAS IT WHO SCREWED OVER ALL THE REST OF THE RACERS TO GET A JACKED UP PAYOUT AND 20 starters?    I don't know do you?

 

yeah too much holiday cheer again  (:

 

 

  




 

#2 dirtstudent2

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Posted 30 December 2017 - 06:45 PM

I really would like some comment on this engine choice for Sprint Car Racing.

 

 

thanks



#3 jo73

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Posted 30 December 2017 - 09:39 PM

DS2. I am going to say it. If someone wants to get into sprint car racing I think the 305 class is a good starting point. 410's are monsters. 360's are like a mad dog and a 305 is a good place to get in the game and after you get some seat time. Move on up to that next angry dog and see if you can handle the HP gain and the set up differences. Your next step is the beast they call 410's. I do not think the current new class of sprint car is going to do any of that. I believe it was the race saver 305's that were running in western pa ? They had wings and the class was growing. Then along came, I want to dominate everything, all classes, me, me, me racing. Whats this new class going to do for a guy that wants to move up ? NOT A DARN THING. The set ups differ greatly from winged to non wing. So you take that same 305 and a guy has a decent set up under him. Put that wing on top and he'll be chasing his tail.

I watch a lot of racing from knoxville on cable. They brought in the 305 and with the 360's they have exactly what I described above. I don't care if it is race saver or whatever sanction it is. For sprint car racing on the local level it seems to be working. Then you have this new my class of sprint car and you add another motor into the plcture. Makes no sense at all to me.

#4 Drt35

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Posted 30 December 2017 - 11:57 PM

never mind


Edited by Drt35, 31 December 2017 - 12:52 AM.


#5 baldtireman

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Posted 31 December 2017 - 12:39 AM

Lernerville/DIRT cut the field and led the charge for track tires....Local regular racers resisted,but a Judas betrayed them.....



#6 dirtstudent2

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Posted 31 December 2017 - 09:07 AM

never mind

 

Thanks Drt35 I'm sure your right and I was wrong.  What I was trying to say there's more places to race a 360 then anything else and payout and tow are better.



#7 BaconBits

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Posted 31 December 2017 - 09:19 AM

Lernerville/DIRT cut the field and led the charge for track tires....Local regular racers resisted,but a Judas betrayed them.....


Pretty much every 410 track in the nation runs the same tires Lernerville does on the sprints, and there are more sprints that regularly go to Lernervile than just a couple years ago. Your point makes no sense.
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#8 Walt Wimer

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Posted 31 December 2017 - 11:54 AM

Where do you run a 360 Sprint Car around western PA????

 

Walt



#9 jo73

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Posted 31 December 2017 - 12:27 PM

Walt, if your referring to my comment. Unfortunately, no where. Could it be done ? I think so but the promotors won't give it time to build. I give Miss RUSH all the credit in the world. I think she was a very good promotor at Mercer. She, along with others put there plan in motion long before a car ever hit the track. Rush has done a tremendous job of building each class they have gotten involved with. It's my personal opinion. I don't think that the take over of all classes is going to be good for racing from the fans perspective.

The central pa sprint car tracks could easily build what I mentioned above but they just refuse to or do not want to work together. After the closing of silver spring they had the perfect opportunity to jump all over this. They didn't have a track to go to. Instead 360's came into the picture. There was no 305 racing at the time. Those super sportsman guys put on 1 hell of a show.

I go to my occasional race here in the south. Crates and 4 cylinders are by far the top 2 classes. Places that people tell me not so long ago that the stands were usually full before the first green flag. You go today and last month at Screven there was less than 25 people in the stands. 25. It was a 2 day show and I didn't go back for Saturday, it was depressing.

#10 BaconBits

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Posted 01 January 2018 - 08:02 AM

Walt, if your referring to my comment. Unfortunately, no where. Could it be done ? I think so but the promotors won't give it time to build. I give Miss RUSH all the credit in the world. I think she was a very good promotor at Mercer. She, along with others put there plan in motion long before a car ever hit the track. Rush has done a tremendous job of building each class they have gotten involved with. It's my personal opinion. I don't think that the take over of all classes is going to be good for racing from the fans perspective.

The central pa sprint car tracks could easily build what I mentioned above but they just refuse to or do not want to work together. After the closing of silver spring they had the perfect opportunity to jump all over this. They didn't have a track to go to. Instead 360's came into the picture. There was no 305 racing at the time. Those super sportsman guys put on 1 hell of a show.



I go to my occasional race here in the south. Crates and 4 cylinders are by far the top 2 classes. Places that people tell me not so long ago that the stands were usually full before the first green flag. You go today and last month at Screven there was less than 25 people in the stands. 25. It was a 2 day show and I didn't go back for Saturday, it was depressing.



The super sportsman do have a track. They run Susquehanna.
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#11 jo73

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Posted 01 January 2018 - 01:20 PM

Thanks Bayko. I know there were running the grove I believe on Saturdays last year but have since been dropped. I think. I did not know someone picked them up for weekly racing in 2017. On occassion I would drop in at silver springs and I'm telling ya those guys put a show on. I had heard the 360 sprints and 600 micro's hurt there car counts.

#12 BaconBits

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Posted 01 January 2018 - 10:49 PM

Thanks Bayko. I know there were running the grove I believe on Saturdays last year but have since been dropped. I think. I did not know someone picked them up for weekly racing in 2017. On occassion I would drop in at silver springs and I'm telling ya those guys put a show on. I had heard the 360 sprints and 600 micro's hurt there car counts.


Im sure they did have an effect. Whenever a new class is introduced, it tends to cannibalize existing classes.
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#13 DavyLee2

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Posted 03 January 2018 - 08:47 PM

A used Government motor is the obvious choice!  With several tracks and divisions running these monopoly motors and now a Sprint car series that will mandate them ... you can find out If you really want to be a sprint car driver ... And if you want to move up to the upper classes .. there is a mandated class near you that guys will buy it used somewhere  .. Or use that block to put a 410 rotating assembly in ... to see if you STILL want to race a Sprint car.....And when America comes back from the cliff and socialized racing gradually goes away ( like Tony George Indy car days before Danica saved it and the real people came back ) there will be enough money not hidden over seas  that prices wont seem so out of reach again like it was in the 50s/ 60s and 70s !



#14 old man d

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Posted 03 January 2018 - 09:03 PM

AHHH, never mind.



#15 spike

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Posted 03 January 2018 - 10:44 PM

Will you be allowed to sell the motor or will you need a certified vendor to sell it for you?



#16 jo73

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 05:37 AM

A used Government motor is the obvious choice!  With several tracks and divisions running these monopoly motors and now a Sprint car series that will mandate them ... you can find out If you really want to be a sprint car driver ... And if you want to move up to the upper classes .. there is a mandated class near you that guys will buy it used somewhere  .. Or use that block to put a 410 rotating assembly in ... to see if you STILL want to race a Sprint car.....And when America comes back from the cliff and socialized racing gradually goes away ( like Tony George Indy car days before Danica saved it and the real people came back ) there will be enough money not hidden over seas  that prices wont seem so out of reach again like it was in the 50s/ 60s and 70s !

 

Poor Jack was laying there empty. Dam it. I new that flying elephant was real. 



#17 blue by you

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 12:30 PM

A used Government motor is the obvious choice!  With several tracks and divisions running these monopoly motors and now a Sprint car series that will mandate them ... you can find out If you really want to be a sprint car driver ... And if you want to move up to the upper classes .. there is a mandated class near you that guys will buy it used somewhere  .. Or use that block to put a 410 rotating assembly in ... to see if you STILL want to race a Sprint car.....And when America comes back from the cliff and socialized racing gradually goes away ( like Tony George Indy car days before Danica saved it and the real people came back ) there will be enough money not hidden over seas  that prices wont seem so out of reach again like it was in the 50s/ 60s and 70s !

:wacko: wow!!!



#18 DavyLee2

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Posted 06 January 2018 - 04:12 PM

LOL Some people do understand my Sarcasm . " Government motors" is a term/reminder of the atrocity era  when the Federal government Not " Bailed out" .. but actually " Purchased "  GM  and others( non racing related) ... stripped rightful investors of their interest and then sold the company back to the public with little debt and a loss to taxpayers of 300%! ..and little Preferred stock holding granny's choosing dog food or prescriptions( Scarcasm !) ..Government Motor!

 Anyways ..

 The Crate 604 or 602 have a good base block and a forced secondary market at several tracks .. Secondary classes were the best thing for the upper classes to sell their old motor to.It made the late model crate racers very happy to see other divisions forced to Buy ! 

 Crate racing never did have any luster for many fans .. and dedicated racing fans watch anyway..

My point is

 There is a Sprint Car series that runs them ( and looks like lots of races to go to )  and several series/classes  that have to run them.The block is a good base for any V-8 class !

Lots of sprint car owners  still use steel blocks and don't buy those " light " cranks  either because they can break easy  ..

You have a good block and Vortec heads for whatever you want to race if you go another direction... or sell the motor to a Lernerville McPhearson chaser  and go full blown aluminum 410 if your ready to jump in the deep end! But Socialized / " Crate " racing will go the way of the " Claimer class" !

Someone said Keith Barbra would be out if he wasn't in the Crate deal ( that fell apart) BUT he didn't take his car  and go buy a Crate now did he !? Maybe he wants to have to push the gas pedal and not just tape it to the floor??? Im not bashing Crate Racing .. it is what it is .. im bashing all the reasons it has become the premier division. ( another subject)! 

All this ( planning to use that block for several motors as a low budget racer )assumes you intend to Race! ... and Not just ride around to say your a race car driver ,

 " Low budget "  translates to " High Work load " ...

another reason to buy a " Crate " that is easy to sell .. Most people give up on racing because its too hard !



#19 dirtstudent2

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Posted 06 January 2018 - 05:36 PM

DavyLee2, that's the finest post I've read on here.  My own included.  My hats off to you Sir.

 

 

 

edit to repeat words of wisdom from the above post

 

 " Low budget "  translates to " High Work load " ...

another reason to buy a " Crate " that is easy to sell .. Most people give up on racing because its too hard !

 

 

 

 

and worth repeating again:  " Most people give up on racing because its too hard !"


Edited by dirtstudent2, 07 January 2018 - 10:22 AM.


#20 dirtstudent2

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Posted 06 January 2018 - 06:00 PM

DaveyLee2, I hope you'll appreciate this part of a post I wrote today and deleted without posting
 
 
 
 
 
IMHO, the only thing missing to grow the numbers of low budget racers with crate or 305 racing out of the ball park is tow money and start money.   If a promoter could offer $150 tow money and $300 to start for local saturday night racing, the numbers of $15,000 cars sprint and late, crate and 305, would IMHO soar out of sight.  Quantity might even replace fast in the eyes of fans and even fans like me.  But first they would have to become involved in taking care of racers and not just their nitch market group of customers.  I don't see that happening and until then it's going to be a continuing conflict between controlling a specific market, creating a place for your market to race and payout for racers.  
 
 
 
The ONLY reason IMHO any nitch market group of cars is at any track is because they were presented as a way for tracks to reduce payout and increase profit.  That's a totally different strategy offered to tracks by promoters then bring in our show of speed and excitement and you'll fill the stands with higher price tickets.  It's was a damn shame when promoters first got tracks to put on the backs of racers the PAY ALLSTAR pit prices, WITHOUT ALLSTAR PAYOUT!     





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