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What's fast about Late Models?


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#1 dirtstudent2

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Posted 14 September 2018 - 07:33 AM

Ok I'm bored had a thought about Lates and figured why not get beat up on here again.  :)

 

Everything else being equal: 

 

I'll just go ahead and make it easy to pick on me by stating as FACT, fast with a Late Model is about how much grip you can get out of your right front.  Get more grip at the right front and you can go faster.  Loose grip at the right front and no matter what else you do you ain't going to go as fast.  Reach the limit of grip at the right front and you also reach your limit of speed.

 

did ya read the preface of "Everything else being equal"?  :) 




 

#2 714d

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Posted 14 September 2018 - 02:07 PM

Its about balance, and having the right amount of grip for the load on each tire. You can have more grip than ever in the RF, and it does you no good if its at the expense of the needed grip in the RR. Or if you are over working a rear tire and not using the other enough, you are leaving speed on the table no matter what your RF is doing. There is always one tire that breaks traction FIRST. The trick is to get them all as equal as possible.

#3 dirtstudent2

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Posted 14 September 2018 - 02:55 PM

Its about balance, and having the right amount of grip for the load on each tire. You can have more grip than ever in the RF, and it does you no good if its at the expense of the needed grip in the RR. Or if you are over working a rear tire and not using the other enough, you are leaving speed on the table no matter what your RF is doing. There is always one tire that breaks traction FIRST. The trick is to get them all as equal as possible.

 

Very good and understandable post.  Here's my understanding on exactly where the balanced right front and right rear come into play with anything using a staggered solid axle.  By the way with Late Model aero and how rear steer hangs the left front out over the bank of the track helping to apply weight to the right front, stagger for a current late model is used and needed less then any other thing you'll see on a dirt oval.  

 

Here's my understanding of exactly where ballanced comes into play:

 

 "Brake, turn, insert arc, accelerate".

Brake is either braking at the end of the straight or just slowing down at the end of the straight.

Turn is you have to do something to turn into a corner weather you turn the wheel or are able to let the change in the track your riding on do the turning for you.

Insert Arc is when ballance occurs and your riding in an arc, be it very short or long, maintaining not only momentum but an elevated speed riding on your grip balanced right side tires.

Acceleration is exiting your balanced right side tire situation which is a gradual or controlled resetting of weights on your tires for the straight. 

 

 

The normal stating of getting through a corner  because of theory from those who race cars turning both left and right and primarily dealing with apex location is "Brake, Turn, Accelerate".  But you don't race stuff that turns both left and right.  Actually if my correct theory was applied to road course turns it would help in getting through turns for them too, lessening their reliance on the "apex".  

 

Thanks for the reply.

 

 

edit:  The best way to learn about insert arc is to watch cars qualifying.  You will be seeing it when after that slow looking car out on the track takes it's qualifying laps, you hear "Quick Time".  It's also the real definition and factual on track application of when someone says slow down to be fast or trys to tell someone to be smooth without knowing how to explain what to do on the track to be smooth.  Smooth and slow down to be fast is when in the insert arc portion of a turn you can apply a slight increase in speed because of the right side application of weight.  Being able to do it seperates good and great drivers from put the pedal to the metal drivers and driving skill to maintain momentum.   The only place on the track where you can beat another car by maintaining momentum is in the turns and the specific place in a turn where driving skill to maintain momentum can be applied is the "insert arc" portion of a turn I described.  And before anyone points it out your ability to be fast in turns is all about and starts at turn entry.  Yes racing skill also always comes into play but in this thread I'm not discussing driver racing skill, I'm discussing what is needed to be fast because you are efficiently using the staggered solid axle car you race.

 

Thanks again for the reply.  I'll stop now and hopefully not read bashing of my words but read conversation discussing my words.  :) 


Edited by dirtstudent2, 14 September 2018 - 03:30 PM.


#4 dirtstudent2

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Posted 14 September 2018 - 07:13 PM

A question for you all.  Where does turn in start?

 

answer:  When you are no longer accelerating or maintaining maximum speed on the straight.  You have to slow down somewhere on the track or you won't be able to accelerate.  If at all possible your total slowing down needs to occur at turn in which starts when you are no longer accelerating or maintaining maximum speed.  Turn in might start before your at the end of the straight or it may start partially into a turn, but it always starts when your no longer accelerating or able to maintain maximum straight away speed.  Turn in ends at the point where maintaining your current momentum or a slightly elevated momentum because of a balanced grip increase on your right side tires.  Guess what comes next?  :)


Edited by dirtstudent2, 15 September 2018 - 07:09 AM.


#5 dirtstudent2

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Posted 15 September 2018 - 07:47 AM

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#6 DavyLee2

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Posted 15 September 2018 - 08:33 AM

The money you spend if you bump the wall or go around the track on the tires

#7 coconut

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Posted 15 September 2018 - 01:31 PM

My question to you is - what is the difference on entry between super late and sprinter ? To me it looks like the both turn in wide open , no brakes at all . how are they slowing down ?

#8 dirtstudent2

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Posted 15 September 2018 - 01:53 PM

My question to you is - what is the difference on entry between super late and sprinter ? To me it looks like the both turn in wide open , no brakes at all . how are they slowing down ?

 

The tires gripping while turning slows them down.  Slowing down doesn't have to be a deliberate thing because the driver knows if he does not slow down he's going straight into the wall or over the hill.  

 

It is absolutely impossible for a race car on an oval track to accelerate at one place on the track, unless they slowed down at another place on the track.  If turn in as I defined it is not the normal place to do your slowing down where would it be done? 

 

Thank you for the conversation.  I offer my thoughts to learn about what may be wrong and hear what others think may be right about them.  That and I'm old and this is fun.  :) 



#9 sicario

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Posted 15 September 2018 - 04:04 PM

Deceleration can be attributed to brakes, lifting, breaking traction entering the corner, or engine lug if you don't lift and miss your marks etc. This depends on track conditions and the degree of this is different at Sharon vs Raceway 7 or Eriez. There is also the degree of how sideways a car is. Like your rf grip to a point, the same can be said of hanging the right rear. It's fast to a point and then you start scrubbing speed. Watching Boom at Eriez is mind blowing because half the time his nose is pointing at the middle of the back stretch when entering turn 1 but he's still fast.

But more to your point, the balance of RF grip and RR balance is dependent on what you want to accomplish at a specific track and how much forward drive is available.

#10 dirtstudent2

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Posted 16 September 2018 - 12:24 PM

"Watching Boom at Eriez is mind blowing because half the time his nose is pointing at the middle of the back stretch when entering turn 1 but he's still fast. "

 

Been to  Eriez many times and been involved a little with a car racing there more then a few times.  I don't know who Boom is I figure your talking about Bloomquist.  Or maybe it's the Boomer nicknamed person I often hear referenced.  Anyway it doesn't matter.  I can imagine someone with skill at Eriez with it's down hill going into turn one, do their slowing down while spinning the car around half backwards so they can be pointing down hill and straight down the backstretch halfway between one and two.  Thinking about that some more I'd guess the best of the best would be the drivers who could get it half backwards and down the lowest to take advantage of inside grip onto the back stretch.  Sure momentum cars can gain on the backstretch and sometimes get around the inside cars there, but the pass is only going to get completed successfully there by the outside momentum car if the inside car messes up or is a toad to begin with.  :)

 

I have a latemodel question about running there and getting through one and two and  onto the back stretch with steam.  I'm thinking it's pretty hard or next to impossible to rim ride around one and two.  That leads me to think getting some grunt out of the LR there half way and on is important.  If that's so then I would think you'd run as much stagger in a Late as you can at eriez.  Do you and others generally run a LOT of stagger for a Late at Eriez?

 

Sure hope you answer yes.  :)    

 

 

edit:  I just watched on here "VIDEO: Late Model vs. Modified | 2018"

It made me think of a term "lateral  braking" or using the car sliding sidways to both brake and gain racing position.  Do you all "setup" the car to be able to do "lateral braking"?   Is it something you'd adjust for like maybe on a slicker track you may want to crank more "lateral braking" ability into it and on a grip track you may not need so much?

 

yeah just another dub question.  :)

 

Looks like if the modifieds are a good representation of common good modifieds, then modifieds in general need more "lateral braking" ability.  :)

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by dirtstudent2, 16 September 2018 - 12:59 PM.


#11 BaconBits

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Posted 17 September 2018 - 07:30 PM

My question to you is - what is the difference on entry between super late and sprinter ? To me it looks like the both turn in wide open , no brakes at all . how are they slowing down ?


Lots of late models are drag braking on entry to keep the car on the bars through the corner.

Edited by BaconBits, 17 September 2018 - 07:31 PM.

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