Jump to content





Photo

I feel like writing down how I think SLM's work

might be an on going process

  • Please log in to reply
25 replies to this topic

#1 dirtstudent2

dirtstudent2

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,581 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:.

Posted 19 November 2018 - 04:36 PM

This only is about oval cars with a solid axle and stagger.  I'm going to do it on here because I feel like it and there's a spell checker to work with on my pc when I do.  It's too involved to handle in one sitting and I'll fix stuff along the way especially if someone points out the errors or additions needed to provide a general theory of how SLM's work and need to be used with the track.  I don't look at any type of car as anything special, for me there all machines with tires and it's about how they need to be used.  Someone else can figure out or know about how to adjust them for use, all I care about is what's needed to make them go around an oval efficiently.

 

I need to start at a beginning and here is the beginning I choose to use.  All cars need to accelerate, slow down and turn while doing both.  When I watch cars on the track and in this case SLM's I see a general way there being used in terms of how their being made to work mechanically and how aero is contributing to how they are used.  The previous sentence is about what's being done to use each tire at all parts around the track.  It's a given tires can be adjusted to either offer more or less grip.  I will only deal with how mechanical actions I see on the track and aero is shifting the cars ability to apply weight to and remove weight from from each tire and most importantly 'why' it's needed.  

 

To try to set my mind while writing this I'll start by saying in all staggered solid axle cars turning is done with the front two tires, stagger in the back or a combination of both.  The major difference between types of staggered solid axle cars is how much turning ability they are able to get from the front tires verses stagger.  There are some other generalities which must be understood.  One is what ever turning ability you cannot get from stagger must be made up with additional turning ability from the front tires.  Another is how much turning ability you need from either the front or the back varies with what portion of the track your traveling over.  What type of car your using will first determine your ability to turn with either the fronts or the back staggered solid axle and secondly determine the extent of use you must get from each of your four tires at all places around the track.  To understand SLM's I'll bring in an obvious comparison between Winged Sprints and SLM's.  Per rules SLM's can't run as much stagger as Sprints.  Because rear tires are closer to being the same size you cannot get as much steering from the back on a SLM then you can get from a sprint.  But both sprint and SLM must turn while accelerating or maintaining a speed.  The result is to do so and over come both rear tires accelerating there are just two options.   You either need to get more turning ability up front or limit the amount both rear tires are wanting to driver the car straight.  Grip is grip up front with each and to gain more acceleration at the back all you need to do is gain grip in the front to oppose the back wanting to go straight.  Your other option is to control grip at each rear tire placing maximum grip on one tire to make it easier for the front to turn one tire over having to turn both tires.  That's a hard concept to understand so I'll make a comparison between SLM's and Winged 410's to help with understanding.  The comparison on a high grip track is between a SLM being able to dump weight on the right rear and go applying hp and a Winged 410 towards the end of the straight with it's right front hiked up dumping weight on the left rear.  The SLM on the straight is there dumping weight on the right rear because the high grip track is allowing for it and the application of torque and hp.  The 410 on the straight is dumping weight on the left rear because it's easier to turn a smaller left rear at 150mph at the end of the straight then it is to turn it's big right rear. 

 

I have a question of SLM drivers about the last few sentences I wrote.   There are two weaknesses with winged sprints.  One of them is the driver isn't secure behind the wheel at the end of the straight until they have the right front again available to them.  I suspect but don't know because i've never asked this in general of SLM drivers so I'm asking now.  Could it be said with a SLM that the driver is not secure and back in control until the "left" front is back working well with the track?   Then this question too.  I can and will say good sprint setup limits the time it takes to get the right front back and working with the track, could I equally say good SLM setup limits the time it takes to get the left front back and working with the track? 

 

In either case back working with the track could include how fast a front tire is brought back to working or how far from the track it is initially carried.  I'll throw out a general observation of both.  It's a feeling right now I have that both accepted good drivers and well setup cars both sprint and SLM will be fast even though they do not carry a front tire high.  That being the case or better put if that's the case then there's more to good setup then dumping maximum weight on either rear tire.   And repeating for clarity it's about SLM's carrying a left front tire and winged 410's carrying a right front tire.

 

That's enough for not even though I do like to write it is tiring to this old fart and I need a break.  I sure hope I get some constructive comments on what I wrote. 

 

If you got this far, thanks for reading and nothing I put down on here is something I"m saying is "the way it is".  I've been doing this long enough and see it as complicated enough that it's tuff to say anything is cut in stone.  

 

 

dirtstudent2




 

#2 jo73

jo73

    Insane Racer

  • Members
  • 1,547 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pittsburgh
  • Interests:Life, Dirt racing, H-D, Golf, Corvettes, Street Rods.

Posted 19 November 2018 - 05:45 PM

Hey Ds2. Why do they carry the RF out east. That one will get you wondering.

#3 dirtstudent2

dirtstudent2

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,581 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:.

Posted 19 November 2018 - 06:09 PM

Hey Ds2. Why do they carry the RF out east. That one will get you wondering.

 

If your talking about winged 410's it's not unique to out ease especially seeable on the front stretch at the Grove.  

 

I did explain it in what I wrote in my first post read it again and I hope you will see it.  But I'll repeat it now.  The reason Winged 410 Sprints carry the right front on the straights is to preload as much as possible the left rear for turn entry.  Think about this if your going 150 mph on the front stretch at the Grove which tire would you want to have loaded the right rear or the left rear?  The answer is simple you preload the left rear with both the wing and suspension because you will need the left rear for and anchor in the turn and it's a "HECK OF A LOT EASIER TO TURN A LOADED SMALLER LEFT REAR", then it would be to turn a huge loaded right rear.  There is NO way they could run into the turn at the Grove at 150 mph with the right rear loaded or even both rear tires loaded and expect the thing to turn.  Your question and my reply leads into the 'other' of the two basic flaws operating a Winged Sprint or for that matter any other type of solid axle staggered oval race car.  I'll save the answer for later.

 

I hope what I wrote explains ok and correctly to you why you see so obviously at the Grove sprint cars carrying the right front tire in the air.  It's all about going 150 mph and there being NO WAY to turn the thing if you had the big right rear loaded.

 

thank you for the conversation and I hope what I replied is ok and hopefully close to being correct.

 

dirtstudent2



#4 racepace

racepace

    Cool Newbie

  • Members
  • 75 posts

Posted 19 November 2018 - 06:42 PM

I believe that one of the national touring series teams need to hire you on up as a team engineer ! With all of the knowledge that you emulate you would vie for the title for sure ! The crown jewel events could be yours for the taking !



#5 dirtstudent2

dirtstudent2

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,581 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:.

Posted 19 November 2018 - 07:08 PM

I believe that one of the national touring series teams need to hire you on up as a team engineer ! With all of the knowledge that you emulate you would vie for the title for sure ! The crown jewel events could be yours for the taking !

 

Thank you for the reply.  I'm not worthy of what you wrote but I do fearing this site and being beat up on here so much in the past offer my thanks.

 

I explain my theories very often to racers and crew chiefs you would consider of a national nature.  An example of how I get my enjoyment as dirtstudent learning is a couple of years ago getting to talk to someone who I did not know and have them listen to me generally validating what I presented.  They did so by not shoeing me off, listening and getting a reply of when discussing the left rear corner of 410 sprint cars at Port Royal with him by his saying, "the fast cars are not down solid on the left rear shock rubber".  The reply referenced discussion of how in the past cars would have the left rear corner down on the torsion bar.  Shortly after at Port Royal another racing acquaintance I saw there asked me if I knew who I was talking too.  I said no and that I had great respect for him because I felt he followed easily what I said to him.  As I said I don't remember names well but I was told he was famous and did setup for Freddy Raimer for many years.  To this day accepting what he said as fact, i'm still trying to fit in now being down solid on left rear shock rubbers.  This past World Finals I got to talk to a crew member on Shatzs team and blended into it not being down solid on left rear shock rubbers, but instead used not being down solid on the left rear shock rubber as being part of what I perceived as their dual spring rate setup of the left rear.  By the way they had a shock on the left rear which had an obviously heavily worn and paint chipped sprint on it.  I think the added on stand out in your face spring on the left rear was just a smoke screen for what they were really doing.  Anyhow that's another story and I forgot where I was going with this.  Oh yes, what I now perceive as being done on the left rear especially after specifically wanting to get to talk to someone on Schatz's team I'm starting to think I'm starting to understand what I was told was Raimers main crew chief said to me about the fast cars not being down solid on the left rear shock rubber.  I not think It DOES relate to dual spring rate and the why of it I'm not ready to talk about on here. 

 

thanks again for the kind reply and I hope again what I'm writing is not total bs and at least mostly correct.

 

 

dirtstudent2 

 

edit:  I make typing errors and often write sprint instead of spring or not instead of now.  In the past I'd go back and fix that kind of stuff but I just don't feel like doing it.  I think anyone reading with any understanding of racing will over look my writing errors.  I'm just going to write and not usually do any editing unless something is drastically off. 


Edited by dirtstudent2, 19 November 2018 - 07:14 PM.


#6 racepace

racepace

    Cool Newbie

  • Members
  • 75 posts

Posted 19 November 2018 - 07:39 PM

I'm glad you want to be on top of all of the modern action. Back, many decades when I started being around the sport some of the hot set ups included filling up the left side roll bars up with cement or the right rear tires that were called "humpers" because they grew like a top fuel dragster tire when the throttle was applied to them !



#7 dirtstudent2

dirtstudent2

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,581 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:.

Posted 19 November 2018 - 08:02 PM

I'm glad you want to be on top of all of the modern action. Back, many decades when I started being around the sport some of the hot set ups included filling up the left side roll bars up with cement or the right rear tires that were called "humpers" because they grew like a top fuel dragster tire when the throttle was applied to them !

 

That's very interesting racepace and thank you.

 

My first thoughts about what you offered is the first is about gaining an advantage with sprung weight and the second is about gaining an advantage with something you'd get a quick argument about from many today.  The second suggest adding both unsprung weight and rotating mass and weight.  Me it's about results and theory of why what you do can make your car go around better.  I do not is all cases dismiss as so many do that adding both unsprung weight and rotating mass/weight will always be a negative thing.  Fact is I suspect Shatz is not only playing with bout using unsprung weight to gain an advantage.  I'm probably wrong about it but for me schools not out on it yet.  :) 



#8 dirtstudent2

dirtstudent2

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,581 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:.

Posted 19 November 2018 - 08:09 PM

racepace my reply above to you made me think of this.  Until and unless it's put into motion by the chassis isn't sprung weight in reality and function unsprung weight?  And if dynamic weight transfers instantaneously ... never mind in this thread I don't want to get into weight transfer and conditions of transfer.  maybe later if I continue on this and get into talking about the why of right front camber on a SLM.  ... and how it may offer the driver a feel of rear steer.    



#9 racepace

racepace

    Cool Newbie

  • Members
  • 75 posts

Posted 19 November 2018 - 10:08 PM

Everything is so complicated for me with the cars handling operating more off of the right front instead of the right rear and the top machines have college educated engineers working with them. I would like to see the rules reflect the time before the new millennium where it was 85% driver and 15% car. Now it is 85% of house cars winning most of the races. If it was a series based on the IROC rules I'm sure that some of the the top drivers of today would be mid pack at best.


Edited by racepace, 19 November 2018 - 10:10 PM.


#10 BaconBits

BaconBits

    Light heavyweight champion of my house

  • Members
  • 4,105 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:West Mifflin
  • Interests:Medium pimping.

Posted 20 November 2018 - 07:24 AM

DS, modern late model setups are all about sealing the nose off and getting the spoiler as high in the air as possible. The setups themselves are far from ideal, but the grip created by all that downforce compensates.
Follow me on Twitter: @JoshBayko

#11 dirtstudent2

dirtstudent2

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,581 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:.

Posted 20 November 2018 - 08:44 AM

DS, modern late model setups are all about sealing the nose off and getting the spoiler as high in the air as possible. The setups themselves are far from ideal, but the grip created by all that downforce compensates.

 

Thank you.  I'm not going to throw an off the top of my head answer at your reply.  It has me thinking in too many directions to reply quickly.  I hope others will add to it.  This is also a learn as you go for me and things offered have to fit in somehow with my current thinking.  What you offered fits but gives me a lot of directions to go with a reply.  I'll just wait on it and see what happens in this thread.  .



#12 jo73

jo73

    Insane Racer

  • Members
  • 1,547 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pittsburgh
  • Interests:Life, Dirt racing, H-D, Golf, Corvettes, Street Rods.

Posted 20 November 2018 - 06:16 PM

In comparison, sprint cars wings over the top of the surface is dished in shape. Today's SLM bodies have dish and angle built into them. Along with spoiler height and total area it would not surprise me that a slm has more rear down force over the rear tires than a sprint car. I'm sure both have been in a wind tunnel and it would be interesting to see the results.

Ds2, with what I just mentioned I think it is the reason why the new slm bodies are so sealed up in the front. There is such a great deal of downforce over the front ends that if the dish, angle or spoiler heights were taken away I think many couldn't drive them.

Next comes your spring, shock and tire choice which all come into play. Because of the difference in tire stager between the 2 classes I can see on corner entry how and why the sprint car rotates easier.

#13 dirtstudent2

dirtstudent2

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,581 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:.

Posted 20 November 2018 - 07:21 PM

Thanks again for the response.

 

 

I'm going to throw an idea out which until just now I couldn't find a good way of phrasing it.

 

 

If you put a scale able to read high input on a fence post and any car up against the scale on the fence post accelerating the highest reading would be how much grip was produced at the back wheels.  If the wheels did not slip I guess the scale would relate to torque produced but that's something for another thread.

 

Again this way of presenting this is new for me and I'm not sure if it's ok but here goes.

 

jo73 if I relate the fence post to what's holding in a winged sprint when it turns in the fence post I think would be lateral grip offered by the big right rear along with the other tires but for reference and to create an idea i'll just say what holds it in at turn in and allows turn in at speed is the right rear sort of acting like a fence post accepting the force of the sprint car.

 

Now jo73 trying to relate it to a SLM which is what I'm trying to look at in this thread the fence post becomes the right front tire.  I'm thinking we might relate locking down on the big right rear tire with a sprint and the momentum of the sprint car pushing on the right rear tire locks the winged sprint down "during" turn in.  Similarly the rear tires accelerating into the right front fence post might be considered what's locking down a SLM "during" turn in.  We might think of both as a sort of clamping action to the track "during" turn in.

 

I put quote marks around "during" turn in because i'm looking at the comparison of the two as an extended period of time and not the instant moment of the start of "turn in".

 

I hope someone else follows what I just wrote, it's been on my mind for many years but until now I have not been able to figure out a way to present it.  How my presentation of the comparison was logical and better yet, understandable and good.  but maybe not?  :)

 

thanks 

 

dirtstudent2 



#14 dirtstudent2

dirtstudent2

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,581 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:.

Posted 20 November 2018 - 07:32 PM

Working with someone who I feel understands rear steer on a late model as it is commonly talked about and felt by a driver, what I wrote above now makes me think the clamping action between the rear tires and the right front and the tendency of the car to want to feel like it's rotating around the right front, may be the basis for a driving having or getting a feel of the rears steering the car.

 

... after writing that I'd better stop and listen to and hear what others have to say about it.  I think I may be in new terrority and maybe new thoughts on how a late works.  but very probably i'm not and just wrong.  ... but maybe not????

 

 

edit:  see post below


Edited by dirtstudent2, 21 November 2018 - 10:23 AM.


#15 dirtstudent2

dirtstudent2

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,581 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:.

Posted 21 November 2018 - 10:23 AM

edit:  I think what follows is a question not a statement.  The clamping action I'm thinking about I think is the result of a combination of grip or bite between the rear tires lateral and forward bite/grip and grip/bite of the right front.  I'm thinking the amount of forward bite/grip you can apply directly relates to the amount of lateral grip/bite you can create at the right front.  I'm also thinking this morning any rear steering feel is not from the back trying to swing around and accelerate around the right front, it's from the rears actually driving or maybe squeezing forward bite/grip to the inside of the right front not the outside of the right front.  And thinking about it more now while writing if the combination of lateral and forward bite/grip from the rears does want to direct forward acceleration somewhat towards the inside of the right front tire, it can legitimately be called "rear steer".  Though moving the left end of the axle is altering the center line in the front towards the right and moving the nose of the car over to the left, so long as the combination of forward and lateral grip/bite is pushing the car somewhat towards the inside of the right front tire it is indeed now, I think, creating steering from the back of the car.  How much I now see could and probably would be dependent on how well you can pin the right front tire laterally against the track.  To pin the right front successfully would lead to the drastic right front camber and caster angles seen today on lates in turns.  Beyond that it's going to be about how much physical and dynamic weight you can have towards the left front available to use on the right front and I think today and probably the newer chassis it's about how the front end leverages weight available towards the left of the right front, to the right front.  It becomes about right front wheel offset, how far out on the spindle the wheel is, where the front roll center is located and maybe most important is the location of the COG(center of gravity) and it's ability to operate through the front roll center to the right front tire.  Just thinking about it off the top of my head I see objectives of moving the COG to the left and forward and the front roll center back.  Up or down on the front roll center would then become a primary adjustment to set needed engagement with the track of the right front tire.  By the way incase you noticed it my thoughts on moving both the front roll center back and the cog forward is thinking about maintaining torque constant at the right front tire yet easing it into the track to prevent quick action from exceeding it's grip/bite.  I'm thinking it would give the driver a better feel to maintain momentum and speed after turn in maybe making it less likely for the driver to jump the cushon.  I don't know it may just be opposite but quick thoughts are telling me what I wrote.

 

I probably should delete this edit but I'll leave it.    



#16 dirtstudent2

dirtstudent2

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,581 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:.

Posted 21 November 2018 - 12:57 PM

guess I should stop writing in this thread.  It's been good for me and served its purpose being i've acquired a few new directions to think about and study.

 

 

if it's done then thanks to all who replied and helped me



#17 WannaRace

WannaRace

    Fast Newbie

  • Members
  • 398 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 22 November 2018 - 09:56 PM

You would think with all your knowledge, your car would clean house when its out. 



#18 dirtstudent2

dirtstudent2

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,581 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:.

Posted 26 November 2018 - 09:46 AM

You would think with all your knowledge, your car would clean house when its out. 

 

 

 

 

I put my thoughts out there hoping to learn something from the input of others.  I don't own a car, never have and never will.  I have a very technical background and have even taught auto mechanics and other mechanical skills.  I am still enjoying even after your sly childish remark learning how dirt oval cars work and especially how their tires need to be used at all places around the track. 

 

Please help me understand better how cars work rather then feeling like I'm talking down to you personally. 

 

I'll offer my thoughts about what you offer to us all about how things work if you would pony up and try to help yourself and others on here.  It's a discussion not an I'm better then you are or your better then me thing.  I'd bet there are racers who read my bull on here and enjoy reading it.  I know that because I've been told many times my thought process when offered to others opens up new ideas for them. 

 

Dirt oval racing ain't easy or simple, it's a very complex thing to grasp.  I have not nor ever will grasp it all.  All I'm doing is having the balls to put my thoughts on it out there and hope others will help me out by as I like to say, tell me I'm full of shit about how something works and explain why.  I sure welcome you to the process if your willing to look at it with an open mind.

 

thanks for the reply, your words do not anger me they make me sad butt I'll get over it  :)

 

dirtstudent2 


Edited by dirtstudent2, 26 November 2018 - 09:50 AM.


#19 dirtstudent2

dirtstudent2

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,581 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:.

Posted 27 November 2018 - 11:14 AM

Until now I have not read through anything I've posted in this thread and this morning I started through post #1.

 

Except for grammar errors and typing caused spelling errors it read pretty much ok to me as far as I read.  I stopped after reading a couple of questions I posted which did not get a reply of any sort.  I was hoping someone who reads on here and has Late Model experience might comment but maybe I'm wrong about fan verses driver or racers reading on here.  I especially thought there were more late model fans and readers generally looking in on here.

 

I've copied and pasted below the questions I posed hoping to get some input on.  I feel confident because of all I've talked to about a 410 carrying the right front part of it and drivers needing to get the right front engaged again.  Here's again the questions I posed and I'm very much looking and hoping for someone or those who drive or setup lates to input on driver feel and security when the left front is not engaged with the track.

 

"  I have a question of SLM drivers about the last few sentences I wrote.   There are two weaknesses with winged sprints.  One of them is the driver isn't secure behind the wheel at the end of the straight until they have the right front again available to them.  I suspect but don't know because i've never asked this in general of SLM drivers so I'm asking now.  Could it be said with a SLM that the driver is not secure and back in control until the "left" front is back working well with the track?   Then this question too.  I can and will say good sprint setup limits the time it takes to get the right front back and working with the track, could I equally say good SLM setup limits the time it takes to get the left front back and working with the track?  "

 

 

If you read this far thank you

 

dirtstudent2



#20 dirtstudent2

dirtstudent2

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,581 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:.

Posted 02 December 2018 - 12:38 PM

Some thoughts on rear steer from reading and thinking about a couple of previous posts in this thread.  And since nobody seams to care one way or another and input, I guess it's  open season for me to spew more bs about how I'm thinking a Late works.  That and it's fun for me to write about it whether I'm correct or not still hoping for input to learn something.    :)

 

Until learning while writing and putting things down in what I consider a logical order in this thread I would argue till the cows come home that mainly because of minimal stagger there is NO such thing as rear steer in a Late no matter how far the left end of the axle is moved forward or the right end of the axle is moved back.  My argument was always your not getting any steering from the back doing it, your only moving the center line at the front of the car to the right.  My other argument would be, again mainly because of minimal stagger compared to a sprint, that forward direction or going straight is determined and set per the direction the axle would want to roll if it was not attached to a car.  And my last argument on it would be you can control the direction of how a staggered solid axle wants to roll differently then the direction set by your staggered tires; via how you load, grip and slip your rear tires.  It netted out to basically the only steering you can get from the back of the car is because of how you load, grip, slip and alter the size of your rear tires mounted on a solid axle.  Enough of that reading this far you either get it or you don't and you've already read and understood what I previously wrote about pinning the right front and pushing forces to the inside of the right front.  :)

 

Because of what I wrote in the last paragraph I can continue on just dealing with steering up front.  To make it easy i'll just say and you can read in other places about how the fronts are able to turn the front of the car because of slip angles, grip and applied load or forces.  It nets out to you push a turned front tire into the track and the track pushes back causing the front of the car to move towards the left.  How hard you can push the right front tire into the track in the case of a Late depends on how much grip you can get out of the right front tire. 

 

Push the right front tire too hard into the track and it slips causing a push and it's that simple. 

 

The simple of it leads to the potential to need to dump a ton of weight on the right front tire, to get into high caster camber angles, to adjust roll forces to leverage the right front tire into the track and the help you get from aero having the car locked down at the right front corner.  All the fancy you see about Late front ends are there to do those four things.  If you work on a Lates memorize those four objectives because all your other efforts revolve around using them per track conditions so you can apply forward bite from the back and turn the car.

 

If you accepted the bull in the last paragraph I can go on and you can go on reading and understanding.

 

What's left is how you use the adjustment ability of a Late to as I'll say and probably those racing Lates say, it's about how you pin the right front tire to the track so you can accelerate forces from the back into and to the inside of the right front tire. 

 

I'm going to again stop and hope to hear about the parts of what I wrote which are wrong and full of shit.  That and along with that an explanation of why what I wrote is wrong so we all can learn something.  If you want to just throw crap like the whole thing is wrong and full of it, without any explanation except to insult me you can do that too.  Do it because all who read on here will understand your ignert nature better.  :)

 

thanks for reading and I sure don't have a clue about what I wrote or if any of what I wrote is correct.  I did it for the fun of writing it.

 

 

dirtstudent2

 

 

edit:  ... So?   ... so the real rear steer so many talk about is the result of pinning a right front tire or a combination of right front pinned and getting some work out of the left front, then steering the force of acceleration from the back tires to the inside of the right front tire.  

 

 

ain't that interesting?(especially if it's correct)   :)


Edited by dirtstudent2, 02 December 2018 - 03:30 PM.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users