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Lets get away from politics and talk about how you setup toe and why


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#1 dirtstudent2

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Posted 30 January 2019 - 11:14 AM

edit:  I now see 55 views.  Since I first posted and now I've corrected some errors and added thought to it.  So if you enjoyed it but saw obvious flaws, they may be fixed or you may want to comment on the errors and flaws. 

 

 

 

 

Setting toe with the basics is easy, ya need some.  How much ya need over how much is necessary depending on what you drive and what you race on, depends on how much slop there is in your front end parts.  That nets out to more slop and play you probably can go with less toe then is required for what you race and where you race.  I already figure the first thing this is going to make someone think about is bump steer.  But since the need for toe transcends so many types of oval race vehicles, i'll just throw bump steer for this hopefully good discussion into the group of how much toe you needs depends on the design of what you race.

 

After ruling out the obvious input we can have about setting toe here are the questions about how do you set toe and why do you do it that way?:

 

1.  Do you set toe with the front wheels straight ahead and do each side equally measuring across between the front and back of the tires to find your toe?

 

2.  Do you string the right side tires, meaning make both right side tires parallel with each other and put the amount of toe in the left front tire? 

 

3.  Do you string the left side tires, meaning make both left side tires parallel with each other and put the amount of toe in the right front tire?

 

4.  Do you just park it with the fronts straight and get down and look at it to see if ya got some toe that looks right?

 

5.  Do you use #4 along with it's a waist of time because the back axle's almost never in the same position in the car on the track, as it is off the track. 

 

6.  What did I miss about setting toe?

 

 

 

Toe, ya need some, how much and how ya do it just depends.  Depends on what?

answer:  The amount of toe you use is just one of many adjustment inputs which together set how you want your front tires to be positioned and angled at critical places around the track.  It does not answer the question of what is the correct way to set toe and why.

 

What is the correct way to set toe and why?

answer:  ???????? 

 

 

 

edit:  I hope that makes amends for me throwing thoughts on here about politics.   And I think there may be just one answer.    :)


Edited by dirtstudent2, 30 January 2019 - 04:22 PM.



 

#2 dirtstudent2

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Posted 30 January 2019 - 04:26 PM

I corrected some things I saw in error and added some thought to it.  I hope it's good racing reading.



#3 jo73

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Posted 30 January 2019 - 07:19 PM

D2. On a modified, back in the day, we had a 1" square tube pc that was up on the tire rack that we used. We squared the LF and set all the toe in the RF. We set led at motordrome on the right side of the car.

#4 dirtstudent2

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Posted 30 January 2019 - 07:30 PM

To mayby end this thread you are correct.  You square the LF and set toe with the RF.

 

And lead is normally set on the right side.  I think it's called lead because the RF leads you into the corner. 

 

Great reply and if nobody gives a reason why or even has a clue why it's still the right thing to do.  I enjoy the discussion when it happens and totally enjoy being wrong if I learn along the way.  :)

 

Probably nobody cares because except for me it's common knowledge and I look really dumb and ignorant even asking.  :)


Edited by dirtstudent2, 30 January 2019 - 07:55 PM.


#5 dirtstudent2

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Posted 31 January 2019 - 12:28 PM

I did say my answer would probably end this thread but I was hoping and still hoping someone would ask: "Why is it you would on most string the left side and set toe with the right front tire.

 

... oh well someone wrote long ago:    "If wishes were horses beggars would ride."  :)



#6 brad hibbard

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Posted 31 January 2019 - 01:18 PM

what about when we plug in different ackerman angles to the equation of static "toe"

many modern day race cars use this in basic design

 

just keeping the wheels turning

 

Brad



#7 dirtstudent2

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Posted 31 January 2019 - 02:51 PM

When writing I understood bump steer etc. would effect things and what toe exclusively did changing angles.  I tried to rule out other things which would be altered by toe and which a change in toe would effect by bringing in how it's all dependent on the 'design' of what your racing.

 

I like talking about ackerman and think I understand it.  I'm sure you know there are different types of ackerman built into the design and I'm going to guess most things you race do not have 'true' ackerman.  My thought is and I think it's as true as any that anytime you deal in something without true ackerman it should be properly called "ackerman effect".  Ackerman and "Ackerman effect" are ways of causing both front tires to either turn proportionally depending on the radius each are about to travel; or to have each turn in different amounts outside the radius they will travel depending on how you want or need to apply each front tire.  I think Brad if the ackerman effect of anything is studied it will show in black and white what the designer of the front end had in mind.  Or it will show the dumb founded luck which struck the clueless builder of the front end.  :)   

 

All front end adjustments are about loading and unloading the right front tire(and the left before someone points it out) and when you do it.  The path of weight to and from the RF through either the LF or another path depending on need.  To make anything do what you want it to do on the track and be fast, you need to be able to get needed work done from each tire(and all tires) at the right time.  Any on track problem is fixed by changing when and how much work each tire can do and does do.  I guess that adds up to a lot of do do.  :) 

 

Your ability to time when things occur is more critical then your ability to load a tire and the path and direction you cause weight to flow; because your dealing with a moving target.



#8 Rocky Kugel

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Posted 02 February 2019 - 02:10 AM

I need about 10 pages on how i set toe...

#9 Hotrod11h

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Posted 13 February 2019 - 09:59 AM

Quick version is rf straight and set toe from there making all adjustment on LF. This is done so if nothing else you forget to tighten things back up the LF is least important. To add with that, LM's drive off RF basically so when car jacked onto rf tire the LF has very little load and thus if too low of toe out on initial setting will become toe in.
James M. Holcomb

#10 DavyLee2

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Posted 13 February 2019 - 12:14 PM

Hotrod do you string a late model like you do a stock car but on the right side ?.. seems hard to do the way the rf is sticking way out there compared to the rr

And to what you said about the load on LF see:

Bloomquist wins Bmain on 3 wheels ....your point made very clear there!



#11 BUTTBEAK

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Posted 13 February 2019 - 01:28 PM

When is toe most important, have most effect handling ?



#12 dirtstudent2

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Posted 13 February 2019 - 01:55 PM

When is toe most important, have most effect handling ?

 

When both front tires or even one are involved with the track.

 

Depends on what your using to race. 

 

In general I'm going to say at the moment of turn in to the corner.  And secondly but equal to depending on ackerman, caster, camber, wheel offset and kpi, helping to set front tires as needed while either counter steering or steering position while rear steer is involved altering the centerline of the car.

 

I'm thinking most are concerned with it especially on a stocker, while counter steering.

 

OK, if that's close which it proly ain't, how is it involved with 4 cylinder fwd cars? 

 

 

edit:  I got another question about it.  Might it be of least concern when your setup to most always have a front corner of the car locked down.  

 

And another question.  Don't Lates most likely lock the right front down and emods/modifieds to the rest of the country, usually lock the left front down?  


Edited by dirtstudent2, 13 February 2019 - 02:00 PM.


#13 TCM29

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Posted 15 February 2019 - 12:43 PM

Kart racers have used lasers to square and set toe for years. Ask any top notch 8 year old on a national circuit and he will show you how. Prod him (or her) a little more and you might get a lesson on VCG, wheel spacing, and what caster does to affect handling. Miss those days............


Edited by TCM29, 15 February 2019 - 04:42 PM.





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