59 replies to this topic

[Dirtracer48]

I like the idea of letting stocks run too. I don't know if you can skinny up a stocker enough to get down to fighting weight with a mod.

Good point. There's about 400 pounds of lead on my car. Would be hard to get the percentages close without it.

Do you think they would be competitive?

I can't remember if it was paragon or brownstown that did a match race between the indiana super stocks and their a-mods. A super stock won the last one. I don't think the ISS rules are that much different than ours....the bodies are just a bit more radical.

I know a stocker is giving up quite a bit when it comes to percentages and suspension design both front and rear.

Not really as far as suspensions go. The fronts are mostly identical, and the rules allow for an exact mod rear suspension (cough). Certain other suspensions just seem to work better with the extra weight of the stock car over the more exotic ones.

Stockers get 4 barrels?

That's an idea, but some of the stockers could gain 60-100hp with the 4 barrel...depending on what else is in it. As long as you're on the piece of crap intake and the 4412 based carb, 500-550 MAX is all you'll ever get horsepower wise regardless what else you put in it.

[WootenRacing17]

I agree on the first year to allow them after that then go to cast iron heads, Also if we do have this divisio n. It maybe a low car count the first year but I belive by the second season it could take off....so u have to give it some time as well.

Edited by WootenRacing17, 13 July 2012 - 10:40 AM.

[geezooie]

How much do you all think it cost per year to compete well in the current modified ranks???? Also how much is the engine for start up cost? How much is the rolling chassis for start up cost? Just wanting to know how much it actually cost?

[kartracer229]

Current mod ranks? I know people with 30-50k in a modified. I know you can easily put together a decent b-mod for 7-9k, race ready. Theres good rollers floating around for 2500-3k, and I know people sell used motors all the time, we bought a 406 last year for 3200 dollars, and its one of the best investments weve ever made for racing. So we honestly would have had 6200 in a decent car and motor, and we would have been racing.

[geezooie]

My thought is if only one person has a guess as to what the current mod ranks cost then the others cant make a good judgement on adding a class that may or may not be less expensive. Solution: Enforce the stock car rules and stop changing them every year in the wrong direction. (ex. hoosier tires, 4 link suspension, aluminum bodies, etc.) Make them stock cars because that is less expensive.

[junker]

My thought is if only one person has a guess as to what the current mod ranks cost then the others cant make a good judgement on adding a class that may or may not be less expensive.

Solution: Enforce the stock car rules and stop changing them every year in the wrong direction. (ex. hoosier tires, 4 link suspension, aluminum bodies, etc.) Make them stock cars because that is less expensive.

YOU SAID TO ALL THERE

[Dirtracer48]

My thought is if only one person has a guess as to what the current mod ranks cost then the others cant make a good judgement on adding a class that may or may not be less expensive.

Solution: Enforce the stock car rules and stop changing them every year in the wrong direction. (ex. hoosier tires, 4 link suspension, aluminum bodies, etc.) Make them stock cars because that is less expensive.

It's obvious you don't know stock cars, or mods. Hmm, that would be a great way to drive off more cars from the stock division....cost the current guys more money on dumb stuff. Hoosier: We're still on the used tires we bought and ran last year used, and we're up front every week. I don't consider them to be ANY more expensive than DOT tires, and they're a much better tire. Aluminum bodies ARE a cost saving measure. Easier to fix, and the day I have to drag home a junk car to spend a week skinning the body off of it....I am done with the division. Nobody out there is on a 4 link, and it wouldn't help anyway. They decided to reel back the rules and ban one particular suspension this year. That cost cutting measure cost me over $1200, and I am just as fast this year complying to the new rule. The bar cars 9 nights out of 10 get outrun by the leaf spring cars - fact.

[geezooie]

DIRTRACER - i am under the impression that you know all so let me ask again. How much do the current modifieds cost? (ex. engine & chassis) If you don't actually know this the extra class means nothing. Also the rule change for the stock rear suspension wasn't to slow you down it was to maintain cost control. (right or not rules are rules so get over the fact that you had to spend more money)(if you didn't like spending money you would just watch racing instead of driving) In your post you say no one has 4 link and then you go right into saying the leafs beat 4 links all the time???? i confused Also if 4 link isn't better then why does anyone do it at all, include mods? Hoosiers cost more new and wear out faster, sure you can get them used but I bet people who buy new run better, hence other have to buy new to compete. Each stretch of the original stock rules cost more money and evolves the class. I guess what I am saying is deal with it or buy a mod because a new class like what you speak of is just not going to happen.

[geezooie]

Nobody out there is on a 4 link, and it wouldn't help anyway. They decided to reel back the rules and ban one particular suspension this year.

The bar cars 9 nights out of 10 get outrun by the leaf spring cars - fact.

This just doesn't add up????

[double checkered]

It could have been a 3 link or maybe a swing arm car. I am not stating any fact that "x" driver uses "x" suspension. Just know that those designs use "bars" and are not a 4 link design. Now the entire chassis is more than just the rear suspension. And the ones winning on leafs are using a tried and true method of making the car do what they want to do. A bar rear suspension can be tough to dial in and the more bars you add, the worse it gets. Often times you are fussing with the rear suspension when it isn't the problem...... Do I feel the sport mod is a better evolution? Yes.....only because of what "stock cars" in our area have become. And comparing a sport mod to a "unlimited" mod is apples to oranges. You need to compare sport mods to our area stock cars. I understand what dirtracer is saying by with minimal changes to a sport mod you can turn it into an unlimited one. And you can downscale an unlimited to a sportmod if you chose to do so. The stock cars that geeozie speaks of are no more in this area. Could they be? Of course. But that's not what's being discussed. He is trying to figure how to use CURRENT cars to create a new class. Not create a new one all together. I liked the true stock cars. I miss watching them race. I understand how and why they evolved. So maybe both can happen over time....... Sport mods to kill off our extreme street cars, and someday bring back the bombers. Jeremy

[compact racer]

Just think if a long time ago a track said NO your not going to run that load it up. You would not have this post today. The thing is it's the same way every where. Why because when a class starts out good someone comes along and tries to get by with something and the powers to be just can't seem to say NO. Only way to fix any class is to eliminate and start with something new and that only works untill that someone starts it all over again.

[Dirtracer48]

I'm on the road working for the next 14-16 hours to make the dough for my toys, so my response and answers to your stupid questions and ideas will have to wait until I get home for a detailed response. Before I do though, have you ever owned or raced a Lima/eldora car?

Edited by Dirtracer48, 17 July 2012 - 01:46 AM.

[Racer31]

http://camdenmotorsp...dex_Page550.htm

Sorry I can't attach a true link from my phone but here is a set of
B-mod rules from a track I was going to attend this last weekend in Camden Tennessee but unfortunately they rained out. Only thing is they use the dreaded crate motor or cubic inch rule engines. It seems on most of the b-mod rule tracks they use this same type of engine choice. Not sure that I like that part but otherwise sounds interesting.

[WootenRacing17]

The stocks we race at eldora waynesfield and limaland right now is a stock car body over a modified chassis so they are nothing like a pure stock class yes they are way out of hand but there is no going back now....it would cost more to move back to a "stock car" type, what we have other then me and a couple others that have older howe chassis,most others have modfied chassis so all they really have to do is move where the motor sits and body work and they have a mod... a lot less expensive then going to try and get a old monte or camaro that's rusted out and they want 2500 or so because they think they are worth somethin. also go on racingjunk and look at some stock cars they want anywhere from 2000 to 6000 no motor or tranny they are out of there minds when u can get a decent roller mod for that!! just face it the old cars are over with within 5 or so years for sure.....

[denoffsinger]

http://camdenmotorsp...dex_Page550.htm

Sorry I can't attach a true link from my phone but here is a set of
B-mod rules from a track I was going to attend this last weekend in Camden Tennessee but unfortunately they rained out. Only thing is they use the dreaded crate motor or cubic inch rule engines. It seems on most of the b-mod rule tracks they use this same type of engine choice. Not sure that I like that part but otherwise sounds interesting.

In order to make this class work, they need to put as many restrictions on the engines as possible. I am betting that most of the stock car engines wouldnt meet most of the rules that would be required to make this class successful. According to the site Dan posted, the engines can be no larger than 362CI and COMPRESSION NOT TO EXCEED 175 LBS. OR 15 INCHES OF VACUUM AT 1000 R.P.M.. The compression and vacuum rule would be the easiest way to regulate the engines since it would be fast and easy to check.

I am guess that most of the limaland stock car guys could put their engine in a mod and be pretty competative. We started out last season with a 12.5:1 compression 388 that we didnt turn over 6700rpm and could run decent even with it being my 1st year. Not saying that youre gonna go out there win but you can be competative.

[Dirtracer48]

DIRTRACER - i am under the impression that you know all so let me ask again.

Where did I say that? I know more than most who haven't been racing one for the most part, and have some experience with the coil cars you believe are the devil.

How much do the current modifieds cost? (ex. engine & chassis) If you don't actually know this the extra class means nothing.

Or we do know, but it is a pointless argument with too many variables. If someone makes a compact out of a bugatti somehow, does that mean it costs 1.2 million to race the compacts? If you want an actual price range, UMP modifieds are out there that ranged $3,500 to a $$50,000 - $60,000 budget. Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go? That fact isn't exclusive to modifieds or stock cars, it's all of racing. The effective restriction with my rule ideas is the junk GM cast iron intake, and a 2 barrel on a 23 degree motor. Sure there are parts that work well with these rules, but it is absolutely restricting 200-300 horsepower off the top mods with this rule package. That in itself saves racers a lot of money. The fact the current stock guys can move all of their existing drivetrain and fuel system into a UMP mod saves racers money. The fact that with a change of intake and carb, most of the lesser funded mod teams could join makes them more competitive on the same budget they were already spending. Can I guarantee no one is going to show up with a 2010 Shaw with a 430sbc? No, but I don't see any Bugatti's in the compact field either. With the restriction mentioned, the benefit to cost ratio gets pretty small quickly.

Also the rule change for the stock rear suspension wasn't to slow you down it was to maintain cost control. (right or not rules are rules so get over the fact that you had to spend more money)(if you didn't like spending money you would just watch racing instead of driving)

Nice, so now I just enjoy spending the money? Maybe I just love the racing and look at it as a passion, or addiction I must feed? Either way, I don't get your point on how I ought to just like it. That's an old dead subject, and I don't blame Lima for the rule addendum, they weren't the ones with their heads in the sand. All the cars you see pulling wheelies? Yup, leaf springs. I know of 2-3 other cars with coil rears, none of us three wheel. The point is their rule wasn't to control costs, it was a knee-jerk reaction to someone's inquiry without having a clue what was exactly out there, and what the cause or extent of the problem actually is. It's kinda like having 40 holes in the bottom of the boat, sticking gum over one and calling it fixed.

In your post you say no one has 4 link and then you go right into saying the leafs beat 4 links all the time???? i confused

No, I said bar cars. 2 links, 3 links, 4 bar, z-link, and swingarm are all "bar cars". There were some fast ones at eldora, but leaf springs dominating yet again. Lima and Waynesfield have had a total of three winners this year. All three on leaf springs. I actually couldn't tell you how many years it's been since a bar car won at Lima or waynesfield? I'm fast on a heavy track, but still remain winless....sigh.

Also if 4 link isn't better then why does anyone do it at all, include mods?

Works great in those cars, not so much on a stocker. They're plain and simple different cars. I've had my thoughts that it just isn't effective with the extra weight you have to transfer, different scale percentages? (I'd be WAY over weight to get to mod percentages). Others I've chatted with said they think the rear steer that is inherent in bar cars just doesn't work with stocks for whatever reason. I don't have the specific cause narrowed down, but on the short tracks at least - they haven't proven to be ANY advantage.

Hoosiers cost more new and wear out faster, sure you can get them used but I bet people who buy new run better, hence other have to buy new to compete.

I disagree that they cost more "new", and I haven't bought a new one in over a year (used stock was scarce beginning of last season). Wear? Hasn't been the LEAST bit of problem for us. DOT tires chunk, and I am not comfortable jumping a cushion at 100mph on tires designed for the tow rig truck. Again, these are my personal experiences with the cars, I've ran both. Have you?

Each stretch of the original stock rules cost more money and evolves the class. I guess what I am saying is deal with it or buy a mod because a new class like what you speak of is just not going to happen.

Conversely, each time a rule is "reeled back" it costs racers money too. What's the result? A net gain of zero. Those who did their homework and were fast before continue to be fast. Those who struggled will continued to struggle.

Edited by Dirtracer48, 17 July 2012 - 02:23 AM.

[geezooie]

If you don't no how much it cost to compete that you still are not making a good argument on whether it makes sense to add another class. Lets say your vast range is correct but you can run up front for $8,000 then how does it make sense to race a new class?

This is my question that you are not getting. Yes I have race both mod & stock. I assume the next question is prove it but that really doesn't matter it just your curiosity and wanting to know if I actually know anything. But you have already made that assumption.

If you want an actual price range, UMP modifieds are out there that ranged $3,500 to a $$50,000 - $60,000 budget.

[Dirtracer48]

You seem to have keyed in on the question that is impossible to answer down to an exact dollar amount, and keep driving that angle into the ground. I understand not everyone will think every class idea is a great idea, so move on maybe? The best I could answer your question is; with 23 degree and the restrictive carb and intake, you're effectively chopping off 200-300hp off the top running engines. Not having to compete with those numbers could save you 10-15g not to mention be more reliable making less hp/torque. Your mileage will vary.

[geezooie]

You want to make B-Mods a class. I think we agree that's want you want. My point is that I believe you can race in the current mods ranks at the Field for about $10,000 buy in (and win) and bout $6,000 to take what can be used from your stock and convert. At these dollars there is no need for a cheaper mod for you stock guys to get into, its not that big of a jump right now so why make another class and spend years trying to get people and car count when you have a current mod class that already does? Also if you think you can save 10-15K with that engine your right - but you can also build a top notch mod engine for that price so there is no need to save that much when that can be the complete project. Take for instance Mullins. There Stage 2 engine sells for 14,500 and that's going to be a hog -

[Dirtracer48]

You want to make B-Mods a class. I think we agree that's want you want.

My point is that I believe you can race in the current mods ranks at the Field for about $10,000 buy in (and win) and bout $6,000 to take what can be used from your stock and convert.

At these dollars there is no need for a cheaper mod for you stock guys to get into, its not that big of a jump right now so why make another class and spend years trying to get people and car count when you have a current mod class that already does?

Also if you think you can save 10-15K with that engine your right - but you can also build a top notch mod engine for that price so there is no need to save that much when that can be the complete project. Take for instance Mullins. There Stage 2 engine sells for 14,500 and that's going to be a hog -

People can, and have won with a $10k car, but that happens about once a season while other $$$$$$ cars dominate the other 19 weeks. My good buddy won in the stocks last year with 5k complete in his car.....on 5 year old leaf springs. So should we deduct from that that the stock cars are in no way out of hand? You state that the "bar cars" are entirely out of hand, yet never win, correct? Yet a $10k mod wins once a year therefore the $40k mods are not out of hand? Were you on the debate team in HS? I think we can agree that you don't like the idea of b-mods, and I do.

Edited by Dirtracer48, 17 July 2012 - 02:43 PM.