24 replies to this topic

[Rusty_Nuts]

Its hard to know what is the right path with these Sportsman cars. Chris Snieder (spelling) is a great stock driver and has had a very tough time trying to get a top 7 in todays field with his 602. Then you see the 33c and that new car in the 28y destroying the field with a 604. In HEAT RACES when the track has bite. And, just my opinion, but it even seems as though the 33c, even with a faster car, chose not to pass the leader last week. Why? I am not sure. Just my observation According to GM, the 604 should only have 50 more hp than the 602 but still less than a 358 or 406. I just don't understand how these cars are able to pull the bigger motors. Is it because of the Aluminum heads?? If so, then how is that fair to everyone else? I have friends that want to start driving but its hard to know which route to go. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks

[94.3-RADRACER]

Its hard to know what is the right path with these Sportsman cars. Chris Snieder (spelling) is a great stock driver and has had a very tough time trying to get a top 7 in todays field with his 602. Then you see the 33c and that new car in the 28y destroying the field with a 604. In HEAT RACES when the track has bite. And, just my opinion, but it even seems as though the 33c, even with a faster car, chose not to pass the leader last week. Why? I am not sure. Just my observation

According to GM, the 604 should only have 50 more hp than the 602 but still less than a 358 or 406. I just don't understand how these cars are able to pull the bigger motors. Is it because of the Aluminum heads?? If so, then how is that fair to everyone else? I have friends that want to start driving but its hard to know which route to go. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks

the bigger motors are spinning, the 604 digging. bolt on parts give you more hp too.

[bigred81]

I'm not sure about the rules at lernerville but you will usually see weight breaks for different motor packages.

[fwdbite]

the 604 has a hyd roller cam and the heads flow pretty good. smooth power band with not to much HP along with no rotating weight sounds like a great choice for a track that shines up like ice.

[mark32stock]

The weight rules are the same for the 358 and the 604 crate engine, I believe the crate engine is allowed a little more liberal setback as well. The aluminum heads combined with the additional setback allow these cars to have very good rear percentage which means they can hook up every bit of power that they do have. Not sure how the 604 would perform in an older car that is a little on the heavy side?

[4FUN]

I think the 'new' SS chassis is rather light.... May not be bad for the smaller tracks, but don't seem to take a hit real well on the bigger tracks .

[Foz20J]

I agree with Mark but in my personal opinion get rid of the 604 crate engine. Aluminum heads should not be on a stock car anytime, anywhere at any point. It's been given too many advantages with weight and engine set backs.

[Tommy]

The difference in HP from the 602 to the 604 is more than 50 HP.

Edited by Tommy, 29 August 2013 - 11:37 PM.

[Skull]

DIRT/WRG has to be getting a kick back on these crate engines. Why else would they be pushing the concept so hard? Think about it. They let Schneider win a few races with a 602 last year, in a car that was illegal. They give them weight breaks and allow additional engine set back for them. It is also clear that they are letting one car in particular get away with whatever they want to do in order to show weak minded people that a crate motor is the way to go....that and if you put one in an S&S Chassis. Let's talk about Chris Schneider. Smart guy, great race car driver. But, he has a stake in all this, too. He built the c33 and many other cars that run Lernerville. He also used fabricated frame rails on the c33 and at least one other new car that I'm aware of. Now understand, Schneider is a consultant for Lernerville's Sportsman rules. If you looked at the rule book opening night, cars with fabricated frame rails were still illegal. You also could only run the GM 602 Crate engine. One poor bastard even asked the tech guys, either Engel or Protzman about the 604 and was told, no, that he could only run the 602. The same fella is running a chassis NOT built by Schneider. This guy shows up opening night with a 602 only to discover that the c33 has a 604 with aluminum heads. His operation is now for sale. And, until someone proves otherwise, no one will ever convince me that the motor in the c33 is a true, honest to goodness as was, right out of the crate GM 604. No way in hell. Not the way that car out pulls guys like Mike Miller on restarts on a tacky track. And don't talk to me about seals. Biggest joke there is. The only way to know for sure is to pull the heads and the oil pan, and as far as I know, that hasn't happened, nor will it. This is no knock on McPherson. The kid is a good driver, but he ain't that good. Anyway, this whole crate thing is supposedly brought about to make the class more affordable. Well, Lernerville's Sportsman class has averaged well over 24 cars for the last few years. How in hell many additional cars do they think they will get? Seems to me that the class was working fine the way it was. When you start making allowances in the rules for certain engine packages, i.e, weight breaks, engine set backs, etc., you give teams more ways to cheat, and they will. When the Crate motored teams start winning everything, how is that saving money for guys that have bought and paid for 358's and 406's if they feel the only way to be competitive is to buy a new car and new crate engine? That logic makes less than zero sense. It will eventually ruin the division.

[friends with everybody]

Been on the dyno with 358 and 406 that where built to lernerville rules no after market heads with brezinski changing the numbers would have a hard time making the same hp as an 604. Guys lie about dyno numbers all day long. C33 pulls them guys because they have the same hp and is 200 pounds liter. I don't have an issue except for the weight IMO I think the 604s should have 80 pounds bolted to the front of the car to make up for the aluminum heads that's the big advantage IMO

[Foz20J]

DIRT/WRG has to be getting a kick back on these crate engines. Why else would they be pushing the concept so hard? Think about it. They let Schneider win a few races with a 602 last year, in a car that was illegal. They give them weight breaks and allow additional engine set back for them. It is also clear that they are letting one car in particular get away with whatever they want to do in order to show weak minded people that a crate motor is the way to go....that and if you put one in an S&S Chassis.

Let's talk about Chris Schneider. Smart guy, great race car driver. But, he has a stake in all this, too. He built the c33 and many other cars that run Lernerville. He also used fabricated frame rails on the c33 and at least one other new car that I'm aware of. Now understand, Schneider is a consultant for Lernerville's Sportsman rules. If you looked at the rule book opening night, cars with fabricated frame rails were still illegal. You also could only run the GM 602 Crate engine. One poor bastard even asked the tech guys, either Engel or Protzman about the 604 and was told, no, that he could only run the 602. The same fella is running a chassis NOT built by Schneider. This guy shows up opening night with a 602 only to discover that the c33 has a 604 with aluminum heads. His operation is now for sale.

And, until someone proves otherwise, no one will ever convince me that the motor in the c33 is a true, honest to goodness as was, right out of the crate GM 604. No way in hell. Not the way that car out pulls guys like Mike Miller on restarts on a tacky track. And don't talk to me about seals. Biggest joke there is. The only way to know for sure is to pull the heads and the oil pan, and as far as I know, that hasn't happened, nor will it. This is no knock on McPherson. The kid is a good driver, but he ain't that good.

Anyway, this whole crate thing is supposedly brought about to make the class more affordable. Well, Lernerville's Sportsman class has averaged well over 24 cars for the last few years. How in hell many additional cars do they think they will get? Seems to me that the class was working fine the way it was. When you start making allowances in the rules for certain engine packages, i.e, weight breaks, engine set backs, etc., you give teams more ways to cheat, and they will. When the Crate motored teams start winning everything, how is that saving money for guys that have bought and paid for 358's and 406's if they feel the only way to be competitive is to buy a new car and new crate engine? That logic makes less than zero sense. It will eventually ruin the division.

You're dead on with your evaluation here my friend!! I just wish the powers that be would realize this!!

[blue by you]

I know that tech man ralph is pushing theses motors. was talking to him at ppms.

[rg8711]

DIRT/WRG has to be getting a kick back on these crate engines. Why else would they be pushing the concept so hard? Think about it. They let Schneider win a few races with a 602 last year, in a car that was illegal. They give them weight breaks and allow additional engine set back for them. It is also clear that they are letting one car in particular get away with whatever they want to do in order to show weak minded people that a crate motor is the way to go....that and if you put one in an S&S Chassis.

Let's talk about Chris Schneider. Smart guy, great race car driver. But, he has a stake in all this, too. He built the c33 and many other cars that run Lernerville. He also used fabricated frame rails on the c33 and at least one other new car that I'm aware of. Now understand, Schneider is a consultant for Lernerville's Sportsman rules. If you looked at the rule book opening night, cars with fabricated frame rails were still illegal. You also could only run the GM 602 Crate engine. One poor bastard even asked the tech guys, either Engel or Protzman about the 604 and was told, no, that he could only run the 602. The same fella is running a chassis NOT built by Schneider. This guy shows up opening night with a 602 only to discover that the c33 has a 604 with aluminum heads. His operation is now for sale.

And, until someone proves otherwise, no one will ever convince me that the motor in the c33 is a true, honest to goodness as was, right out of the crate GM 604. No way in hell. Not the way that car out pulls guys like Mike Miller on restarts on a tacky track. And don't talk to me about seals. Biggest joke there is. The only way to know for sure is to pull the heads and the oil pan, and as far as I know, that hasn't happened, nor will it. This is no knock on McPherson. The kid is a good driver, but he ain't that good.

Anyway, this whole crate thing is supposedly brought about to make the class more affordable. Well, Lernerville's Sportsman class has averaged well over 24 cars for the last few years. How in hell many additional cars do they think they will get? Seems to me that the class was working fine the way it was. When you start making allowances in the rules for certain engine packages, i.e, weight breaks, engine set backs, etc., you give teams more ways to cheat, and they will. When the Crate motored teams start winning everything, how is that saving money for guys that have bought and paid for 358's and 406's if they feel the only way to be competitive is to buy a new car and new crate engine? That logic makes less than zero sense. It will eventually ruin the division.

I don't think the c33 has ever had anything to hide about what's in the car. I've seen people coming over to take a look at it every week. If you want to get a personal look at any car at the track I'm sure all you have to do is ask the driver..rather than babbling on about the motor on racestud. Everybody is all uptight about the crate engine, if some of the other drivers cared half as much about their own cars and maintenance as they do about bitching about the c33 and other crate cars..maybe they would win a race! And yes the reason that he can beat on the bigger motors is because his tires aren't spinning..some people don't understand that sometimes LESS hp is better.

[Foz20J]

I don't think the c33 has ever had anything to hide about what's in the car. I've seen people coming over to take a look at it every week. If you want to get a personal look at any car at the track I'm sure all you have to do is ask the driver..rather than babbling on about the motor on racestud. Everybody is all uptight about the crate engine, if some of the other drivers cared half as much about their own cars and maintenance as they do about bitching about the c33 and other crate cars..maybe they would win a race! And yes the reason that he can beat on the bigger motors is because his tires aren't spinning..some people don't understand that sometimes LESS hp is better.

The expression if it isn't broke why fix it applies here. What was the need for an aluminum headed engine on a stock car?? How many tracks allow that in the stock division?? And do you think the other competitors in the sportsmans division at Lernerville aren't worried about there cars or doing the proper maintenance week in and week out?? We've all been chasing him all year. And I think that has been apparent. Some guys are doing better than others at gettin there cars to be competitive with him.

[rg8711]

The expression if it isn't broke why fix it applies here. What was the need for an aluminum headed engine on a stock car?? How many tracks allow that in the stock division?? And do you think the other competitors in the sportsmans division at Lernerville aren't worried about there cars or doing the proper maintenance week in and week out?? We've all been chasing him all year. And I think that has been apparent. Some guys are doing better than others at gettin there cars to be competitive with him.

20J - Last year you were in the running for the championship with the c33, he obviously had a different motor last year, not a crate. So what was so different about last year then. This years excuse is the crate. What is your excuse for the c33 winning races last year?

[Rusty_Nuts]

I don't think the c33 has ever had anything to hide about what's in the car. I've seen people coming over to take a look at it every week. If you want to get a personal look at any car at the track I'm sure all you have to do is ask the driver..rather than babbling on about the motor on racestud. Everybody is all uptight about the crate engine, if some of the other drivers cared half as much about their own cars and maintenance as they do about bitching about the c33 and other crate cars..maybe they would win a race! And yes the reason that he can beat on the bigger motors is because his tires aren't spinning..some people don't understand that sometimes LESS hp is better.

But that is what is so fishy about the whole deal. He has been faster even on tracks that have bite. If the motor is TRUE crate, he shouldn't be pulling away from 358's and 406's like he does. Same with that new 28y. I want to get into the division but it seems as if there is to much "behind the scenes" going on. Has the 33c motor ever been torn down? I know it was pumped but that doesn't mean jack. These crate motors can still be upgraded and resealed without changing the Pumping Number (Cubic inches?).

[Rusty_Nuts]

The weight rules are the same for the 358 and the 604 crate engine, I believe the crate engine is allowed a little more liberal setback as well. The aluminum heads combined with the additional setback allow these cars to have very good rear percentage which means they can hook up every bit of power that they do have. Not sure how the 604 would perform in an older car that is a little on the heavy side?

The rules say 2700 for crates. 3000 for 358. and 3100 for 406.

[Rusty_Nuts]

DIRT/WRG has to be getting a kick back on these crate engines. Why else would they be pushing the concept so hard? Think about it. They let Schneider win a few races with a 602 last year, in a car that was illegal. They give them weight breaks and allow additional engine set back for them. It is also clear that they are letting one car in particular get away with whatever they want to do in order to show weak minded people that a crate motor is the way to go....that and if you put one in an S&S Chassis.

Let's talk about Chris Schneider. Smart guy, great race car driver. But, he has a stake in all this, too. He built the c33 and many other cars that run Lernerville. He also used fabricated frame rails on the c33 and at least one other new car that I'm aware of. Now understand, Schneider is a consultant for Lernerville's Sportsman rules. If you looked at the rule book opening night, cars with fabricated frame rails were still illegal. You also could only run the GM 602 Crate engine. One poor bastard even asked the tech guys, either Engel or Protzman about the 604 and was told, no, that he could only run the 602. The same fella is running a chassis NOT built by Schneider. This guy shows up opening night with a 602 only to discover that the c33 has a 604 with aluminum heads. His operation is now for sale.

And, until someone proves otherwise, no one will ever convince me that the motor in the c33 is a true, honest to goodness as was, right out of the crate GM 604. No way in hell. Not the way that car out pulls guys like Mike Miller on restarts on a tacky track. And don't talk to me about seals. Biggest joke there is. The only way to know for sure is to pull the heads and the oil pan, and as far as I know, that hasn't happened, nor will it. This is no knock on McPherson. The kid is a good driver, but he ain't that good.

Anyway, this whole crate thing is supposedly brought about to make the class more affordable. Well, Lernerville's Sportsman class has averaged well over 24 cars for the last few years. How in hell many additional cars do they think they will get? Seems to me that the class was working fine the way it was. When you start making allowances in the rules for certain engine packages, i.e, weight breaks, engine set backs, etc., you give teams more ways to cheat, and they will. When the Crate motored teams start winning everything, how is that saving money for guys that have bought and paid for 358's and 406's if they feel the only way to be competitive is to buy a new car and new crate engine? That logic makes less than zero sense. It will eventually ruin the division.

Wait a minute.. Schneider makes the rules for the sportsman class? Doesn't that automatically put you at a disadvantage if you don't have S&S. Ha. That doesn't seem logically fair

[whiteboy55]

IMO all tracks that run stocks need to go back to an 8" wheel, it is the easiest way to even the field without spending a ton of money. all the weight rules do not work. tri-city had the best set of stock car rules and that is when the division thrived. 2007 applefest, Steve D'Apolitto won with a crate engine. there were some guys there with big motors ,but the 8 " wheels evened the field. winning that race with a crate engine surprised everyone. lerenrville is the only track that i see getting a good car count for stocks, but if they are playin favorites with the ss chassis guys they are gonna lose. lernerville has a good thing goin with their stock division, don't screw it up!

Edited by whiteboy55, 30 August 2013 - 03:01 PM.

[BaconBits]

Cheated up motors and all that jazz won't mean shit if the stocks were on rock hard 8" tires. Get rid of the late model tires and watch costs go down.