32 replies to this topic

[plymouth-man]

Ok here is a question I've been asking for a while, what has happened to the late model class at most tracks? I went to Mercer for their special and 18 is all they had. I went to MCR last wek and was eager to see all the late models because Stateline was not running, 13 was all that showed up for a 1,500 purse, what the heck? Is it just getting too exspensive to feild a late model and crew these days? What is your opinion on low car counts?

[race ace]

Here is my opinion on this and it is on racing as a sport not just late models ,  everything you do cost money to race and yes i knew this when i got a car but first you build a car then you put a bunch of money in it building it to the rules then you take it to the trrack and pay 30 dollars or around there to get in some guys pay for their whole crew also.. then you buy fuel for the night and you already put gas in the truck to get there plus the trailer liscence and all of the oil changes for the car and the cost of just everything ,then (and i know the track  owners can't afford to pay what it cost to break even or they would be out of business) at he end of the night if you make 20 dollars you had a pretty good night , now it starts all over again if you are running again next week plus you have a job and a house to take care of it just seems to be too much and nobody can afford to pay a pit crew so if you are lucky one of them might be able to help you go over the car for next week . i know a guy who was a pretty good racer and he just sold two chasis and his trailer and everything because of the cost and the having no help thing . it is a shame  but the cost of every class is way out of hand  for what  the pay out is . and that is nobody's fault just a crap economy ...... but i do expect to see a pretty good amount of semi-lates at A.M.P because this class is stil one you can build an engine for in  your own garage but as soon as someone gets a 10.000 dollar engine built and dominates this class then the honeymoon  will be over in that class too and that is why a claimer rule would be good for this class. i love to race and there is nothing better than hearing that car digging in coming off the corner but the truth is i never had the money to do it the way it needed  to be done .but as long as you are having fun that is all that counts .i have met a lot of people in the pits  a person in the stands never would have met.

[BaconBits]

race ace, on 27 Apr 2014 - 12:21 PM, said:

Here is my opinion on this and it is on racing as a sport not just late models , everything you do cost money to race and yes i knew this when i got a car but first you build a car then you put a bunch of money in it building it to the rules then you take it to the trrack and pay 30 dollars or around there to get in some guys pay for their whole crew also.. then you buy fuel for the night and you already put gas in the truck to get there plus the trailer liscence and all of the oil changes for the car and the cost of just everything ,then (and i know the track owners can't afford to pay what it cost to break even or they would be out of business) at he end of the night if you make 20 dollars you had a pretty good night , now it starts all over again if you are running again next week plus you have a job and a house to take care of it just seems to be too much and nobody can afford to pay a pit crew so if you are lucky one of them might be able to help you go over the car for next week . i know a guy who was a pretty good racer and he just sold two chasis and his trailer and everything because of the cost and the having no help thing . it is a shame but the cost of every class is way out of hand for what the pay out is . and that is nobody's fault just a crap economy ...... but i do expect to see a pretty good amount of semi-lates at A.M.P because this class is stil one you can build an engine for in your own garage but as soon as someone gets a 10.000 dollar engine built and dominates this class then the honeymoon will be over in that class too and that is why a claimer rule would be good for this class. i love to race and there is nothing better than hearing that car digging in coming off the corner but the truth is i never had the money to do it the way it needed to be done .but as long as you are having fun that is all that counts .i have met a lot of people in the pits a person in the stands never would have met.

Claimer rules do not work. They never have, and they never wil.

[RocketChassis#1]

Your right Bacon, for the most part claimer rules don't work. When the E-Mods started in the area in 1992-93 several tracks went with UMP rules which had a claiming rule on the engines. Didn't seem like that lasted long.

[plymouth-man]

Well from what I read on here ppms only had 8 super lates last night, is this going to be a trend for the future or will tracks reel in the costs and bring more cars into the class?

[RocketChassis#1]

PPMS is one track that tried to control motor cost, (which lets face it, is the biggest problem), with the spec motor and 525 crate deals, but other tracks in the area wouldn't follow, or come up with their own ideas. Running $30,000 to $60,000 motors weekly, or for that matter nationally just isn't going to cut it anymore.

[94.3-RADRACER]

my take, put all divisions on the hardest tire made. the engines could then be smaller or more competitive, and your tire bill will be much less. but, tire companies pay tacks for open tires, which soft tires can make motors bigger, and more power to ground. why more lm tracks won't go to a 525 crate motor bafles me....we would be in one. only ppms has that choice......

[Express Man]

Economy  Economy  Economy!  You race with money at all levels!  Not for Money!  It has allways been about the money!  Saddly   Only 44 percent of the American people now work!  The rest are entitlement people in some way or another!  When I got envolved in this sport in 1976  A good competetive Latemodel cost $10-$15,000.00  You towed with an open trailer and carried four spare tires!  You had one motor that ran all season!(Big Bloick) And maybe you checked the bearings half way through!  Gas was $.39 a gallon ! Racing fuel was $1.00 a gallon  Most guys ran Gulf Hightest and mixed it with an additive!  Cost for that stuff was arounf $.75 a gallon!  Cars had $100.00 dollars worth of shocks...not $5,000.00!  A good competitive Big Block was about $5,000.00!  Tires were still around $100.00 each then!  The payout?????  $800.00 to win and $200.00 for 10th at most tracks! $35.00 to start!  Pits were $5.00 entrance and stands were $3.00.  Today????  Payout not even as good ar some places in this area.  Pits $25.00  Stands $12.00  Gas $4.00 a gallon  Racing Fuel $10.00 a gallon  Tires   $140.00 each  Motors $35,000-$50,000  Shock package  $5,000.00.  Ignitions instead of a Mag  $1500.00 more.  Race cars  $20,000.00 compared to $5,000.00.    In the late Seventies  Most guys working in the coal industry or mills or powerplants were $30,000 plus a year!  Today.....$8.25 at Sheetz or 49.25 at Walmart!    Pretty much tells the storie!  We priced ourselves out of the game!  Yep  Modern Technology!  Can't argue its better!  It is!  In order to see Latemodels come back!  There needs to be NO Gas Shocks  $100.00 shocks  Inless Gas can bought for $100.00 max!  Crate Motors in all divisions!  525 is Super late  604 is semi late!  602 in e-mods and purestocks!  No Light weight parts!  And a claim fee on the cars and motors!  Also need a $100.00 tire!  And purses need to be $1000.00 to win semilate with $100.00 to start and $200.00 for tenth!  And $2,000.00 to win superlate with $200.00 to start and $400.00 for tenth!  Then you could race!  Need to forget about BIG Shows!  The regular racing guy does not benefit by running those!  Need a good May through September schedule!  With maybe one special!  Now...with that being siad....How do we get the fans in thre stands to pay for this??? I don't know!  But here ius what I do know.  You can't run a $100.000.00 car for $100.00 bucks!  It just can't happe inless you have a full sponsorship deal for the season!  And I gaurentee that will only last one season!  I don't think it can be fixed!  Today  we have Nascar on cable tv.....Cell phones...the internet..... Business all open 24hrs a day... And young folks with no interest!  Saturday Night racing Will be going the way of the corner Gas station!  When Racing last Flourished    There was no competition!  Just hte Drive -in Movie and the Pirates!

[kip77]

Yep the economy and a lot more competition for entertainment dollars.

[Wing_Nut]

I think some of it has to do with the crate late class.  I think some of the people who have been racing crate late models would run super lates since you can run a crate late for less.  It certainly has not helped the Supers field...

[94.3-RADRACER]

that is not true at all. name super late guys running crates full time now. i can't but lunger. bossard has both. max, pegher, and angelico have moved up. if we all could run a super late we would have before. the guys who have run them are just getting out. our class is exspensive enough.....

[spike]

If the PURSE was $1,500, that would be a little over $100 per car.  Maybe $1,500 to WIN. 

[plymouth-man]

Economy  Economy  Economy!  You race with money at all levels!  Not for Money!  It has allways been about the money!  Saddly   Only 44 percent of the American people now work!  The rest are entitlement people in some way or another!  When I got envolved in this sport in 1976  A good competetive Latemodel cost $10-$15,000.00  You towed with an open trailer and carried four spare tires!  You had one motor that ran all season!(Big Bloick) And maybe you checked the bearings half way through!  Gas was $.39 a gallon ! Racing fuel was $1.00 a gallon  Most guys ran Gulf Hightest and mixed it with an additive!  Cost for that stuff was arounf $.75 a gallon!  Cars had $100.00 dollars worth of shocks...not $5,000.00!  A good competitive Big Block was about $5,000.00!  Tires were still around $100.00 each then!  The payout?????  $800.00 to win and $200.00 for 10th at most tracks! $35.00 to start!  Pits were $5.00 entrance and stands were $3.00.  Today????  Payout not even as good ar some places in this area.  Pits $25.00  Stands $12.00  Gas $4.00 a gallon  Racing Fuel $10.00 a gallon  Tires   $140.00 each  Motors $35,000-$50,000  Shock package  $5,000.00.  Ignitions instead of a Mag  $1500.00 more.  Race cars  $20,000.00 compared to $5,000.00.    In the late Seventies  Most guys working in the coal industry or mills or powerplants were $30,000 plus a year!  Today.....$8.25 at Sheetz or 49.25 at Walmart!    Pretty much tells the storie!  We priced ourselves out of the game!  Yep  Modern Technology!  Can't argue its better!  It is!  In order to see Latemodels come back!  There needs to be NO Gas Shocks  $100.00 shocks  Inless Gas can bought for $100.00 max!  Crate Motors in all divisions!  525 is Super late  604 is semi late!  602 in e-mods and purestocks!  No Light weight parts!  And a claim fee on the cars and motors!  Also need a $100.00 tire!  And purses need to be $1000.00 to win semilate with $100.00 to start and $200.00 for tenth!  And $2,000.00 to win superlate with $200.00 to start and $400.00 for tenth!  Then you could race!  Need to forget about BIG Shows!  The regular racing guy does not benefit by running those!  Need a good May through September schedule!  With maybe one special!  Now...with that being siad....How do we get the fans in thre stands to pay for this??? I don't know!  But here ius what I do know.  You can't run a $100.000.00 car for $100.00 bucks!  It just can't happe inless you have a full sponsorship deal for the season!  And I gaurentee that will only last one season!  I don't think it can be fixed!  Today  we have Nascar on cable tv.....Cell phones...the internet..... Business all open 24hrs a day... And young folks with no interest!  Saturday Night racing Will be going the way of the corner Gas station!  When Racing last Flourished    There was no competition!  Just hte Drive -in Movie and the Pirates!

Good post and sadly I think Saturday night racing will be a thing of the past if something doesnt change..

Edited by plymouth-man, 27 April 2014 - 03:58 PM.

[jon sleepy]

sad but true

[Express Man]

It might be better to say????where are all the race cars period?  8 Superlate at PMS last night!  Don't know what Roaring Knob had ...but I'll bet not more than 35!  Motordrome only had like 25cars for practice.  Where are  all the asphalt cars going to come from to race at three tracks???    Winchester and Potomac weekly get about 12 Superlates each!  Doesn't look good period for racing in this area!  Now...go down east to Portroyal or Hagerstown...and they seem to be getting decent fields!  But there is some Industry around that area that offers JOBS!  I own two business' in the area!  Both are struggleing!  With the month of April being the slowest so far!  And March being the best month so far!  I think all the Tax Refund people file as early as possible and had thier money in March!  While all the people paying file Aril15th.  Add Easter into the mix and just no money out there!  Now Gas is going up!  I just don't see it getting any better for anything... let alone a sport that requires discressionary cash!  And one simple little thing would fix it all!  LOWER THE PRICE OF OIL!  Yes Folks....thats right....LOWER THE PRICE OF OIL!  We have more in this country than we can ever use!  But we want to continue to make the Middle East RICH!  I just don't don't get it!  I just don't undersdtand who our allegiance is to?  Oh Wait...I forgot about about the environment of the Guppie!  Don't want to disturb that!  Our Grandchildren may never get to see a real live Guppie!  Really America....Wake up call time!  If nothing soon changes....we will all be Entitlement people living in a Socialistic society!  Fortuniatly.....I doubt that will happen in the time I have left!  But if you have Children and Grandchildren....you may want to start paying more attention to who you Elect to run this Country!  Or they will never be able to to see a good Saturday night short track race!  But they will be able to have a Guppie!  Support the Candidate thats supports DRILLING!  Yep...its a little messy!  But what is the alterative!  We can't pay $4.00 a gallon for gas!  When the Market crashed in late 2008, Largely because George Bush said we were going to start drilling for our own oil....(Thanks Mr Bush)  the price of a gallon of gas dropped to $1.50. And the economy started to Flourish again!  Things were actually good through 2010!  Then the price at the Pump started back up and the Economy started back down!  Bring Gas down to even $2.50 a gallon and watch and see what happens!  We may become the America I love again!  If not....I am affraid they way of life we all expect in this country(racing included) is seriously in Jeopardy!  Just My .02

[The Legend]

I'm sure a lot of the items listed are legit reasons for declining car counts. In my case I'm slammed with work and I have been for the last 10 years and just have not had time to assemble my other new car. I started on it yesterday so hopefully in the next 2 months it will be done. Failure to tire test , failure to black flag people and failure to suspend people is also responsible for poor car counts.

[BaconBits]

Express Man, on 27 Apr 2014 - 3:33 PM, said:

Economy Economy Economy! You race with money at all levels! Not for Money! It has allways been about the money! Saddly Only 44 percent of the American people now work! The rest are entitlement people in some way or another! When I got envolved in this sport in 1976 A good competetive Latemodel cost $10-$15,000.00 You towed with an open trailer and carried four spare tires! You had one motor that ran all season!(Big Bloick) And maybe you checked the bearings half way through! Gas was $.39 a gallon ! Racing fuel was $1.00 a gallon Most guys ran Gulf Hightest and mixed it with an additive! Cost for that stuff was arounf $.75 a gallon! Cars had $100.00 dollars worth of shocks...not $5,000.00! A good competitive Big Block was about $5,000.00! Tires were still around $100.00 each then! The payout????? $800.00 to win and $200.00 for 10th at most tracks! $35.00 to start! Pits were $5.00 entrance and stands were $3.00. Today???? Payout not even as good ar some places in this area. Pits $25.00 Stands $12.00 Gas $4.00 a gallon Racing Fuel $10.00 a gallon Tires $140.00 each Motors $35,000-$50,000 Shock package $5,000.00. Ignitions instead of a Mag $1500.00 more. Race cars $20,000.00 compared to $5,000.00. In the late Seventies Most guys working in the coal industry or mills or powerplants were $30,000 plus a year! Today.....$8.25 at Sheetz or 49.25 at Walmart! Pretty much tells the storie! We priced ourselves out of the game! Yep Modern Technology! Can't argue its better! It is! In order to see Latemodels come back! There needs to be NO Gas Shocks $100.00 shocks Inless Gas can bought for $100.00 max! Crate Motors in all divisions! 525 is Super late 604 is semi late! 602 in e-mods and purestocks! No Light weight parts! And a claim fee on the cars and motors! Also need a $100.00 tire! And purses need to be $1000.00 to win semilate with $100.00 to start and $200.00 for tenth! And $2,000.00 to win superlate with $200.00 to start and $400.00 for tenth! Then you could race! Need to forget about BIG Shows! The regular racing guy does not benefit by running those! Need a good May through September schedule! With maybe one special! Now...with that being siad....How do we get the fans in thre stands to pay for this??? I don't know! But here ius what I do know. You can't run a $100.000.00 car for $100.00 bucks! It just can't happe inless you have a full sponsorship deal for the season! And I gaurentee that will only last one season! I don't think it can be fixed! Today we have Nascar on cable tv.....Cell phones...the internet..... Business all open 24hrs a day... And young folks with no interest! Saturday Night racing Will be going the way of the corner Gas station! When Racing last Flourished There was no competition! Just hte Drive -in Movie and the Pirates!

Obseleting perfectly good stuff in favor of "cheaper" stuff doesn't save anybody any money. It costs them MORE money, and would drive car counts down even more. Also, weekly purses don't mean shit. Marion Center averages the most cars and pays the least. Weekly racers aren't in it for the money, they're in it because it's a hobby.

As for the original question...

It's April. It's early in the season yet. A few more cars will trickle in the local tracks in the next month or so. There's some dudes that simply aren't ready yet. .

Still, it's likely that there won't be more than a full field anywhere once things go full swing in May and June. There are a few things that contribute to this. One is defnitely the cost, as has been mentioned repeatedly in this thread. Another thing being thrown about is the economy. Yep, that's a factor too.

But here's some things that haven't been mentioned.

There are too many tracks attempting to run the same program on top of each other on the same night. Fridays aren't as crowded, with just Bedford, Dog Hollow and Lernerville running. Saturdays have more tracks running. PPMS, Roaring Knob, Marion Center, MCR, and AMP all run super late models as their headliner. That's five tracks within a few hours of each other on the same night. Not surprisingly, the Friday night tracks have a tendency to have slightly stronger car counts than the Saturday night tracks.

Also, there's a crapload of specials in the area, and slightly outside the area. There's a bunch of guys who only run those specials, so that means they're at different tracks each week instead of a weekly home. For instance, PPMS only had 8 cars. Roaring Knob had a Lucas race this weekend that was ultimately rained out, but there were at least two or three guys who would normally be at PPMS at the Knob instead.

[Wing_Nut]

I am not really implying that Supers are moving down, what I am saying is that if there was not a crate series there would be more supers because there would be one less option.

 

I love the idea of Crates.  Look at McKean County.  They always have a pile of crates.  If there was one late model class there would be more Supers.

 

On another note, the Economy is probably the number one factor as noted in another post.  Gotta have money, sponsors to compete.  There certainly is less of it nowadays.  

[dirtstudent2]

My recollection is both Fastrack and Rush, promote their series not only from the standpoint of the cost of a race car.  They also very strongly promote their series by advertising potential payout.  If a team looks at the potential to be cost effective at the end of the year and have the 1099's to prove it, might you go the crate route thinking you may even turn a profit.  Not that it's a high percentage thing, would you have a better chance to turn a profit racing crate or super?  

[94.3-RADRACER]

crate for sure...