24 replies to this topic

[dirtstudent2]

I think I'm on solid ground with this having discussed it with a nationally known Big Block Modified racer last year and a nationally known owner manufacture of a Big Block chassis brand this year.  Both last year and this year  after listening to my theory expressed to me they thought I was correct and they were in agreement with me.

 

Though I get beat up by a few bleacher creators on here there are also others who express to me they enjoy my writings, so it is what it is.

 

Why do cars 4 wheel drift?

 

There are just two reasons for a 4 wheel drift the first is it's a driver problem created by going to fast for the grip available and including chopping off a corner or just slightly chopping off a corner.  

 

The second reason is grip has been lost from the left side tires.

 

Generally you will not see cars get into a 4 wheel drift on tracks which are normally slick or lacking grip or at tracks which normally gain grip.  In those cases it's generally accepted by racers that speeds at the track will be lower and in general cars will be setup initially as best as possible to handle a reduced grip lower speed track.

 

I'll assume those reading understand what chopping off a corner is, it's cause and results.  I'll also assume those reading understand how a drift can occur simply because a driver is trying to go too fast and puts the car beyond available grip.  What follows is why those setting up can put a car into a 4 wheel drift when at a track which goes from grip to less grip or even slick.

 

I'll start with the idea if you have the hp and the turning ability up front to steer your hp, with a late or modified it's often if not the norm to dump weight on the right rear(RR) and go.  As long as the RR is able to hold in, you can put the power to it and go because of applying weight to the RR via cross and wedge.  When that occurs you will see the left front(LF) being carried off of or only slightly engaged with the track during acceleration and even in turns.

 

That's fine put the power to it and who ever has the most power and the better racer driving the car wins.  But when the track starts to slick up or the RR begins to go away something needs to be done to compensate for loss of ability to put the RR to the ground with power and go.  

 

What is done next is because you still need to put all the possible power to the rear tires and your now beyond or slightly beyond what the RR is able to do for you, so you have no choice but to bring more into the picture the left rear(LR) to assist in acceleration.  If the track has not yet gone to slick when you bring the LR on board more for acceleration, you also will need additional turning ability up front to handle what is now two rear tire trying to drive the car straight when you need to turn.   It means when a track shifts to slick you not only need to bring in the LR tire to maintain acceleration, you also need to bring in more the LF tire to help turn your car.  

 

In total when the track looses grip you need to engage and use your left side tires more.

 

At this point the tracks loosing grip or the RR is going away and were adjusting to be able to use the left side tire more, to compensate for the loss of grip.

 

What happens next and leads to the 4 wheel drift problem is adjustment or compensation to use the left side tires is over done.   If you bring in the left side tires too much or you make mass adjustments knowing you have to get more out of the left side and the track continues to loose grip, you can and will now loose all grip at the now over taxed left side tires.  

 

When you loose grip at the left and the right side tires are already at or beyond their limit, you have lost grip at all 4 wheels.  Your left side tires have lost grip because you asked too much of them and since there not working all weight goes to the right and the rights if they were working even a little, now quit working.  The end result is your in a 4 wheel drift condition.

 

That's the scenario and the reason cars can get into a 4 wheel drift when a track goes from grip to slick.  I see PPMS as a good example of where the scenario can take place.

 

The fix is the driver must slow down because the car has been adjusted to over use the left side tires.  What's missed in what I've presented so far is it's not realized when making setup considerations. when a track slicks up there is only one thing for certain.  That one thing is

 

[BaconBits]

The problem with your writings is that you try to apply the same theories to all divisions on dirt when between the divisions, there's extreme differences in the ways handling problems are corrected.

[dirtstudent2]

The problem with your writings is that you try to apply the same theories to all divisions on dirt when between the divisions, there's extreme differences in the ways handling problems are corrected.

 

Though you are correct in your perception I write to all and there is a difference in what is raced, I do not totally agree with you.  

 

If my theories and writing are correct, they do have to cross over and include all cars being raced on dirt.  Your perception I generally write to all things raced on dirt is correct.    

 

My basic philosophy is there is an ideal way to use a staggered solid axle car and the ideal needs of a solid axle car from both the front and back tires in a turn and on the straight are the same.  Some things raced left turn only(LTO) are better able to come closer to what I see as the ideal then others.  

 

Currently a Winged Sprint Car and I'll add in on pavement a Super Modified are what are able to come closest to using their staggered solid axle in the most efficient way.  On track problems are the same across the board because for the same reasons and occur because of how differences in car types keep what's being raced away from the ideal.  A well know Super Modified chassis builder a few years ago told me when I explained to him how I felt a Winged Sprint uses it's stagger, "I do the same thing, only with weight".

 

My writing and theories if correct apply to all LTO cars across the board.  I did not include Winged Sprints in my first post not because with them a 4 wheel drift cannot occur, but because it is less likely for it to occur with Winged Sprints.  I'll have to note here for the sake of clarity there's a difference between a true 4 wheel drift and drifting up the track coming off the corner because of the need to apply power with reduced turning ability.  This year as noted in my first post, I went to modified people to suggest my theory on 4 wheel drift to see what reply I'd get, because that is a type of car where I felt the problem would most likely occur.

 

It doesn't matter what is race there are four things which must be done.  They are apply power, slow down, maintain momentum and turn left.  Because all have a solid axle and staggered tires it becomes which car can best use it's solid axle, staggered tires and turning ability from both the front and back.

[BaconBits]

What applies to modifieds has little to do with anything else.

[manny]

give up. 

 

What applies to modifieds has little to do with anything else.

give up. he believes what he wants . he is clueless.  i am not a bleacher creature.

[dirtstudent2]

What applies to modifieds has little to do with anything else.

 

 

Again I agree with you.

 

All the differences in cars end up changing one thing.  The differences effect how the cars must be used with the track.  

 

This is tough for me to explain.  It's about what is required to give a 4 wheeled car the ability to go fast in turns and on the straights.  it's about limitations and advantages which are given to each type of car depending on rules about chassis construction and tires.  I started this paragraph with it being tough to explain.  Because of it being tough I omitted any reference to hp.  For the sake of trying to explain I'm assuming all modified, sprint or late, have enough power to spin the rear tires at anyplace around the track.

 

Yes and for the sake of explanation I'll say what applies to a modified does not apply to a late and does not apply to a sprint.  The common thing between all is there is a specific fastest or ideal way their tires need to be used with the track to be at their fastest.  The common difference between them is they all do not have the same ability to use their tires in the ideal way.   I see an example needed and I'll offer one.  I'm going to say to be fastest, most efficient or ideal, all must use their right side tires in a balanced way balancing front to rear, in a turn.  I'll suggest a late can do it more efficiently and better then a Winged sprint or a modified.  That alone will not make a late faster then a Winged sprint, but the fastest winged sprints will use their right side tires in a more balanced way during turns.

 

I'm not doing so well explaining am I?

[BaconBits]

No, you're not explaining well, because what you're saying makes zero sense.

[BaconBits]

give up. he believes what he wants . he is clueless.  i am not a bleacher creature.

I know he's clueless, and currently, I am a bleacher creature.

[jo73]

Ds2.. Go watch those new xr-1 chassis. I have seen kid rocket throw that thing into a corner and it looks like it turns into a 4 wheel drive monster. He's drifting all right. He's just got his foot planted on the floor. When they get that thing right I don't think that anyone can stop him. As for what your saying on here, remember, if anyone really had a idea of what they where doing they probably wouldn't be on here....

[blue by you]

WOW!!!! that is deep. I think you should write a set up book. help some of these pros with there set ups.

[dirtstudent2]

Ds2.. Go watch those new xr-1 chassis. I have seen kid rocket throw that thing into a corner and it looks like it turns into a 4 wheel drive monster. He's drifting all right. He's just got his foot planted on the floor. When they get that thing right I don't think that anyone can stop him. As for what your saying on here, remember, if anyone really had a idea of what they where doing they probably wouldn't be on here....

 

I watched him race last Thursday, Friday and part of Saturday, leaving before the last feature ran.

 

I saw him moving all around the track looking for a grip advantage after checking out in the Friday feature.  At times looking for grip at different places on the track it can and does appear as if he's just got his foot to the floor.  What I saw was control of the go pedal and didn't think he was riding around with his foot to the floor.  Along with this post of thoughts of what's needed to use a car efficiently i'll bring in now that it's generally slower to ride through the first portion of a turn on the ragged edge of grip with your foot to the floor, no matter who you are and what your using on the track.  Foot to the floor on the edge of grip or loss of grip is not the fastest path.  On the other side of the extreme is when a track does have grip to hold in what ever is presented to it in the way of hp.  At that extreme through the first portion of a turn track grip and turning will be forcing the car slower even though the driver keeps their foot to the floor.  It again will be slower because when going faster is again able to happen, the engine has been put into a forced slow down, which it will not immediately be able to recover from.  Sure there's a middle ground between the two extreme's and yes there's a best way for the driver to handle efficiently the middle ground.  But I think looking at the logic I offered at the two extreme's for a driver to not have their foot to the floor in the first part of a turn, might carry through in practice between the two.  What I feel I saw Friday was not a driver riding with his foot to the floor, but a driver with very good right foot control of the throttle.   

 

 

edit:  I want to add more about right foot control on the go pedal.  I think the biggest reason for a leading driver to get beat on the start and through the first end of a track is excitement because of the restart often causes a good driver to put too much pedal to it and then loosing grip and the lead.

Edited by dirtstudent2, 04 November 2016 - 12:40 PM.

[racer67x]

I want to add more about right foot control on the go pedal.I think the biggest reason for a leading driver to get beat on the start and through the first end of a track is excitement because of the restart often causes a good driver to put too much pedal to it and then loosing grip and the lead.

I'll go with..
his tires glazed over after they cooled.
he burned off fuel during the caution which changed his handling.
he rode the same line as before but the groove had changed due to the moons gravitational pull sucking moisture back into the track surface.
he caught a whiff of burgers cooking while riding under caution and his hunger pangs caused a brainfart.
could be any number of things..lol

Edited by racer67x, 04 November 2016 - 05:37 PM.

[dirtstudent2]

I'll go with..
his tires glazed over after they cooled.
he burned off fuel during the caution which changed his handling.
he rode the same line as before but the groove had changed due to the moons gravitational pull sucking moisture back into the track surface.
he caught a whiff of burgers cooking while riding under caution and his hunger pangs caused a brainfart.
could be any number of things..lol

 

 

And I'll go with what you offered instead of my thoughts on it, it makes more sense then what I wrote.

[jo73]

That's funny...

[dirtstudent2]

That's funny...

 

 

My humor's so dry, everything I write is a joke.

[manny]

 

 

My humor's so dry, everything I write is a joke.

you need to find a school. stop asking people. it's a waste of time. 10 different guys give you 10 different answers.  i been there.  you would be so much farther ahead if you wouldn't  have blocked me.

[dirtstudent2]

 

I think I'm on solid ground with this having discussed it with a nationally known Big Block Modified racer last year and a nationally known owner manufacture of a Big Block chassis brand this year.  Both last year and this year  after listening to my theory expressed to me they thought I was correct and they were in agreement with me.

 

Though I get beat up by a few bleacher creators on here there are also others who express to me they enjoy my writings, so it is what it is.

 

Why do cars 4 wheel drift?

 

There are just two reasons for a 4 wheel drift the first is it's a driver problem created by going to fast for the grip available and including chopping off a corner or just slightly chopping off a corner.  

 

The second reason is grip has been lost from the left side tires.

 

Generally you will not see cars get into a 4 wheel drift on tracks which are normally slick or lacking grip or at tracks which normally gain grip.  In those cases it's generally accepted by racers that speeds at the track will be lower and in general cars will be setup initially as best as possible to handle a reduced grip lower speed track.

 

I'll assume those reading understand what chopping off a corner is, it's cause and results.  I'll also assume those reading understand how a drift can occur simply because a driver is trying to go too fast and puts the car beyond available grip.  What follows is why those setting up can put a car into a 4 wheel drift when at a track which goes from grip to less grip or even slick.

 

I'll start with the idea if you have the hp and the turning ability up front to steer your hp, with a late or modified it's often if not the norm to dump weight on the right rear(RR) and go.  As long as the RR is able to hold in, you can put the power to it and go because of applying weight to the RR via cross and wedge.  When that occurs you will see the left front(LF) being carried off of or only slightly engaged with the track during acceleration and even in turns.

 

That's fine put the power to it and who ever has the most power and the better racer driving the car wins.  But when the track starts to slick up or the RR begins to go away something needs to be done to compensate for loss of ability to put the RR to the ground with power and go.  

 

What is done next is because you still need to put all the possible power to the rear tires and your now beyond or slightly beyond what the RR is able to do for you, so you have no choice but to bring more into the picture the left rear(LR) to assist in acceleration.  If the track has not yet gone to slick when you bring the LR on board more for acceleration, you also will need additional turning ability up front to handle what is now two rear tire trying to drive the car straight when you need to turn.   It means when a track shifts to slick you not only need to bring in the LR tire to maintain acceleration, you also need to bring in more the LF tire to help turn your car.  

 

In total when the track looses grip you need to engage and use your left side tires more.

 

At this point the tracks loosing grip or the RR is going away and were adjusting to be able to use the left side tire more, to compensate for the loss of grip.

 

What happens next and leads to the 4 wheel drift problem is adjustment or compensation to use the left side tires is over done.   If you bring in the left side tires too much or you make mass adjustments knowing you have to get more out of the left side and the track continues to loose grip, you can and will now loose all grip at the now over taxed left side tires.  

 

When you loose grip at the left and the right side tires are already at or beyond their limit, you have lost grip at all 4 wheels.  Your left side tires have lost grip because you asked too much of them and since there not working all weight goes to the right and the rights if they were working even a little, now quit working.  The end result is your in a 4 wheel drift condition.

 

That's the scenario and the reason cars can get into a 4 wheel drift when a track goes from grip to slick.  I see PPMS as a good example of where the scenario can take place.

 

The fix is the driver must slow down because the car has been adjusted to over use the left side tires.  What's missed in what I've presented so far is it's not realized when making setup considerations. when a track slicks up there is only one thing for certain.  That one thing is

 

 

 

 

"That one thing is"  the car will be going slower.

[dirtstudent2]

 

 

"That one thing is"  the car will be going slower.

 

 

If the car is going slower there are less on track 

[blue by you]

 

 

If the car is going slower there are less on track 

less what on the track ?.............cars?

[dirtstudent2]

If the car is going slower there are less on track forces available to operate the chassis and act on the car.  

 

Any car on the track operates within the limit of available grip, per available hp directed by the driver.  The chassis and tires are the conduit between available hp and available grip.  On track forces develop from all variations of acceleration and aerodynamics to alter the conduit between hp and available grip, in both direction of flow and the effort or force of the flow.

 

Thanks for the question and I'll net it out.  The scenario I presented was the track went from grip to slick and because the ability of the RR tire and right side tires in general were exceeded, adjustments were made to better use the left side tires.  Next the track get slicker yet, the chassis has been adjusted to use the left side tires more to the point where now the left side tires loose grip.  Once left side tires loose grip a 4 wheel drift occurs because the already over taxed right side tires cannot hold the car in and it slides outward on all 4 wheels.

 

It nets out to being the car can not go as fast because of the over all loss of grip.  What happens in the pits to cause excessive adjusting to use the left side tires is it's realized track grip is going away to the point of being helpless to fix the situation and gain grip.  Crew decision maker will throw out all stops and just do all they can to dump everything on the left side.   They will look to fix the problem by gaining left grip because of knowing the situation started when the RR lost it's ability to hold in and they had to go to the lefts to gain grip.

 

What is missed when a 4 wheel drift is adjusted into the car is the fact that the car out on the track will be going slower and there will be less forces available to both operate the chassis and to over come grip.  The fix which is generally missed is first things need done to make the chassis easier to operate.  Next missed is because the car will be going slower, adjustment towards using the left side tires can be backed off because with the car going slower usage of the right side tires can be increased.

 

Here's what the driver experiences when a track goes from grip to slick and over adjusting to use the left side tires is done.  The driver realizes because the track has lost grip and he'll be going slower, but is frustrated because he has to slow so much more then others.  Because of lack of understanding of why he has to all of a sudden be so much slower then everyone else, instead of slowing down further to gain needed grip the driver will ride the 4 wheel drift up across the track.  The base problem he has now is the cars just to hard on the left side tires, they go out from under him and the rights which have been adjusted out of the picture are also gone.  I've watched great drivers especially at PPMS pull off the track.  What also happens is because of the lack of grip from loosing the left side tires, a normally great driver will start trying to try to force it around the corner and because there going at a speed which seems to them as unbelievably slow, they will also start chopping of corners at entry.