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Late Model setup question after watching last night at Stateline


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#1 dirtstudent2

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Posted 28 May 2019 - 10:58 AM

I originally posted this in another thread but not to hijack someone else's thread I'm moving the dumb question here to ask and deleting it in the other thread.

 

 

Good and enjoyable race to watch.

 

Watching cars on the somewhat slick track at Stateline yesterday with what appears to be not a lot of banking brought thoughts of a 'how do they do it' setup question to mind.  And since I do this for fun, killing time waiting to see if I can go out and cut grass today and to learn I have a question?

 

 

 

I was sitting towards turn one and was able to watch both right front camber and camber gain, mentally trying to compare the amount to what I've seen in late models at higher grip more banked tracks.  I take what i see and compare it in my mind including on track forces at work or on track forces which are available at one track verses another.  The quick reference brought to my mind in this area is Tri City to hopefully make what I ask relate to those who know about late model setup.  Because this is a question to learn, I'll make the comparison to what I saw at Tri City because it sticks out most in my mind. 

 

Long story short it appeared to me that the 'fast' late models used more right front camber and less camber gain at State Line then I remember seeing at other area tracks.  Definitely 'more' initial camber and 'much less' camber gain.  The first question is am I correct about what I think I saw at State Line? 

 

 

 

 

That my initial question and I think I'm probably correct about my observation which lead me to my real question after thinking about how >camber gain< is likely changed for State Line.  So far what I'm writing about is all about the front end and right front tire presentation with the rest of it about how on track forces are made to interact with right front tire presentation via adjusting front roll center for how you leverage the right front into the track differently and SECONDLY how you use 'so called rear steer' to aim the acceleration forces towards the right front tire. 

 

I don't know late model adjustments but It's easy for me to see how with late model setup you would coordinate together both how much you hang the left front corner of the car out over the bank of the track per banking and available grip, and how you alter the centerline of the car to present forward acceleration either at, to the left or to the right of the right front tire. 

 

I hope I have that correct and I think I do weather it's generally realized or not. 

 

 

 

 

 

On to the real late model question which relates to 'camber gain'. 

 

I understand how to adjust the >rate< of camber gain and I think I see how the amount of rear steer and the amount of lift in the rear of a late model chassis can be controlled. 

 

After all that lead in what I'm asking is how do you control the >RATE< of the action of rear steer? 

 

I think that would be critical for how you cause on track forces to operate the chassis.  The obvious example would be making a choice between easing weight into a tire verses banging weight into a tire per available grip?  Yes I see how tire duro etc depending on if your allowed to prep tires effect it but this question is about, if there is anything. that controls the >RATE< at which rear steer and rear chassis lift occurs?  And if there is what is the general adjustment called?  Or do you have to work together several things to control the >RATE< at which rear steer and rear lift occurs.  This is separate in my thinking from what you have to do to control the physical amount of lift and rear steer.  I also am thinking there is nothing to do it or might there be a chassis shock which could be used in controlling the rate?  I don't know, I'm probably wrong about the whole thing but I'm asking anyway to learn.

 

thanks for reading and I'm explaining up front it's a question and I'm trying to learn from others on here.   That and I like to write and do this for my own fun and entertainment.   :)        

 




 

#2 Hotrod11h

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Posted 28 May 2019 - 11:46 PM

I didn't get to read and grasp your whole question but the more camber thing started about 12yrs ago. Teams are looking at camber to plant rd better. The rear steer is controlled thru 4 link bars and limited with a chain on lr

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#3 Retort

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Posted 29 May 2019 - 06:31 AM

Dirt Student, you might consider taking an interest in non-wing sprint car suspension. It would take the stress out of your life and put a thrill in it.




#4 dirtstudent2

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Posted 29 May 2019 - 08:30 AM

Dirt Student, you might consider taking an interest in non-wing sprint car suspension. It would take the stress out of your life and put a thrill in it.

 

Your right but then don't sway bars clutter things?  :)  And they keep making me think about how to sway bar it between the right front and left rear.  :)




#5 dirtstudent2

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Posted 29 May 2019 - 08:59 AM

I didn't get to read and grasp your whole question but the more camber thing started about 12yrs ago. Teams are looking at camber to plant rd better. The rear steer is controlled thru 4 link bars and limited with a chain on lr

 

The gist of what I asked about is the rate of chassis movement or how quickly parts change position.  Camber gain would be increased in both the amount the right front tire moves top to the left and how quickly it moves top to the left per driver input to the steering wheel.   Thank you I now see how a chain would limit upward travel and cause instantaneous weight transfer to occur after physical movement of weight is completed. 

 

What I was thinking might be done is to somehow adjust leveraging and moving of the physical parts to control how fast the left rear of the chassis moves from down to being fully up and held by the chain.  I can see the distance the chassis is going to be raised being completed by different length levers leveraged from different points.  Writing this and thinking more of watching late models and even stocks work different cars do seem to operate differently.  I'd bet there even ramping involved where you can control either the initial movement or movement of the chassis just before it comes to rest either in an up or down position.  I think making rear steer in a late model work for track conditions if a lot more then just putting the chassis up or down or moving an end of an axle forward back.  I think today it's more about the amount of force it takes to initially operate the chassis or operate it more during racing.  And it's about how you return it to a different position while racing which is different then when the chassis is at rest. 

 

I guess the obvious answer to this for most is it's about how you adjust your shocks to change the rate of movement and then making chassis adjustments becomes about how you locate weight and move the chassis around to alter the location of weight.   I think that in a nutshell is the easy of it.

 

 

edit:  thank you again.  I was thinking chains were installed only to keep springs from falling out but now I see they can be use as a part of the suspension causing dynamic weight to do it's thing moving instantly.  I hope I'm seeing it correctly?   

 

Retort, asking questions on here is for my own fun because this stuff if fun to think about, I enjoy writing in the morning and knowing a little about how the cars work makes it more fun watching cars and drivers race. 

 

You brought up wingless sprints and it made me think of why don't late models operate more like wingless sprints out on the track?  


Edited by dirtstudent2, 29 May 2019 - 09:12 AM.



#6 dirtstudent2

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Posted 29 May 2019 - 12:58 PM

Retort, since you brought up sprint cars and it made me think about sway bars the most unique idea for a sway bar is one of Dave Blaney's ideas.  

 

His idea which I'm not sure personally will work is to run a sway bar from the left rear to the right front via a lever between the left rear up to a cross over to the other side of the car  bar/torsion bar maybe and then through a gear box up the right side of the car to the right front.  If done you'd have both a torsion bar across the car which could be changed and adjustable mechanical advantage via the gear box.  Though I'm not sure it would work I think the idea is brilliant. 

 

I'm guessing as far as your concerned he's way over thinking stuff.  I personally admire his thought process and personally many many years ago once stood in an autograph line for an hour at the Blaney's not to get an autograph but to ask him a question.  When it was my turn he asked me if I stood in line just to ask a question and I said yes.  He was kind enough to stop autographing and answer my question about a particular workings of a sprint car.  :)

 

edit:  Retort, your comment indicating wingless sprint type stuff is not all that complicated leads me into asking you a question about wingless type sprint type chassis.  Have you ever seen a Munchkin?  And no I'm not asking about little people in the Wizard of Ozz.  :)

 

One other comment for you Retort.  I think anything which has a solid rear axle is complicated weather you race through turns or in a straight line.


Edited by dirtstudent2, 29 May 2019 - 01:04 PM.



#7 Retort

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Posted 29 May 2019 - 01:00 PM

No problem Dirt Student, just having some fun, you are a good sport about it. Sprint cars have a solid front axle so they can't work like a late model. A rule of thumb is the RR gets you in the corner and the LR drives you out. How you want your car to get around the track is the reason there are endless methods to get it done. It is easier to adjust yourself out of shape than into it.




#8 dirtstudent2

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Posted 29 May 2019 - 01:08 PM

No problem Dirt Student, just having some fun, you are a good sport about it. Sprint cars have a solid front axle so they can't work like a late model. A rule of thumb is the RR gets you in the corner and the LR drives you out. How you want your car to get around the track is the reason there are endless methods to get it done. It is easier to adjust yourself out of shape than into it.

 

Thank you kind Sir and my responses were in fun also.  I think your reply was good.  Especially the last sentence.  :)

 

 

edit:  I have to throw this into the mix:  "My sense of humor is so dry, everything I write is a joke.".

 

 

Another question for you.  Everytime it rains around here the first place I look to see if their racing after Sandusky and Painesville are Toledo and Flat Rock speedways, never being to either of them.  Do you go to either Toledo or Flat Rock, I see your location is Toledo?  

 

lol if ya want to get things really complicated lets think about if your going to attach the rear panhard bar in a super modified from right to left or left to right?  :)    


Edited by dirtstudent2, 29 May 2019 - 01:30 PM.



#9 Retort

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Posted 29 May 2019 - 02:20 PM

 " if ya want to get things really complicated lets think about if your going to attach the rear panhard bar in a super modified from right to left or left to right?  :)"

    a Watts link is the only way to go on a super, unless it has leaf springs....

As for Toledo I only go there for open wheel shows. Flat Rock doesn't interest me, as it is a stock car bull ring. Fremont  and OakShade are great dirt tracks if you get out this way.




#10 dirtstudent2

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Posted 30 May 2019 - 12:11 AM

" a Watts link is the only way to go on a super, unless it has leaf springs...."

 

I'll have to look closer.  I've not noticed watts links used. 

 

Probably just didn't notice.  I guess the way some of them try to quickly dump weight to the front before the turn a watts link would allow for more rear chassis movement.  Quickly now thinking about it it's logic is probably similar to the amount of chassis roll setup via limiting chassis movement on a big block modified.  Blending in big blocks and supers it might be about being able to run a harder right rear.  But again I ain't sure and don't even know if I'm making a valid comparison.  Just throwing thoughts out there hoping someone will correct me on it and i'll learn from it.  Not really sure of any of what I just wrote since you mentioned watts links.  It's been a couple of years since I was in the pits looking at them especially the Bodnar car.  I talked about it with Jim and about the rear of cars lifting among other things and he told me to watch how much his cars lift prior to corner entry, which I already was aware of.  When it got down to asking anything real pertinent he passed on it saying his son designed the cars.  I'll have to be sure to make it again to Sandusky this year even if the real super modified series isn't there.  




#11 BaconBits

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Posted 30 May 2019 - 08:13 AM

Modern late model setups are largely the way they are to get maximum use out of the aerodynamic advantages a late model has, meaning keeping the nose sealed off and the spoiler up in the air as high as possible within the limitations the suspension has.



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#12 dirtstudent2

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Posted 30 May 2019 - 09:31 AM

Thank you for the information


#13 dirtstudent2

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Posted 30 May 2019 - 01:03 PM

Right front aero and current right front spring compression was first pointed out to me well over 10 years ago by Chris Gabe hart who was the winning crew chief this year for the Daytona 500 race. I've known him on the Internet for maybe 20 year's. Super smart young man growing up and then he went off to Purdue getting a mechanical engineering degree.





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