16 replies to this topic

[dirtstudent2]

Don't know squat bout much or anything but I always start to wondering about how do they do that with late models.

 

Just got in from Eriez a bit ago and saw a super late model laying hard on the right rear watching it go through turn one.  Naturally me being me I expected to see the right rear give up on it because it looked like they were getting pretty much no work our of the left rear and the car would spin out; it did.  The other obvious thing, at least to me, was when the left rear tire went forward, when the left rear corner of the car hiked up, instead of easing forward it 'zipped' forward quickly. 

 

How the heck do you all put the left rear towards the sky while moving the left rear forward and not loose all function and grip help out of the left rear tire? 

 

If it were an easy to understand sprint you would simply control the balance of work between the two rear tires via the jacobs ladder configuration and mounting you use.  Which will changing how you set the back end down and how you rock or set the chassis down and rotate the rear roll center. 

 

But with a late model because I think your using the engine to jack the chassis, it can't as simple as just getting the chassis to set where you want it in a turn.   When you all throw rear steer into it, the work the front runners are able to get out of the left rear is like magic.  Yep Magic, what's the trick those who setup the car that got no work out of the left rear and I saw spin, need to know? 

 

Probably dumb question again.  Read through what I quickly wrote/asked and I think the main thing I was thinking watching the car was that it was just laying too darn hard on the right rear tire.  Is there one main go to thing to control how much work you can get out of a late model left rear?  

 

I said up front I don't know squat and that's why the crummy question.  Just trying to learn to make it more fun watching cars go around on a dirt track.  Saw so much great racing tonight I guess I got board watching great racing and wandered to thoughts of how the heck do they do that? 

Edited by dirtstudent2, 29 July 2019 - 12:05 AM.

[dirtstudent2]

Just got up don't have to go to work anymore, read what I wrote last night.  Though written last night in a way trying to keep the trolls on here away I think it's a good question.  and thinking about it some more just throwing thoughts about it on here looking for agreement or explanation of where I'm wrong again to learn:

 

I think depending on available grip offered by the track and it's not just about pushing or digging forward the left rear into the track, as I saw on the fast cars, it's also about getting enough use out of the right rear entry on out.  Too much right rear and no left rear dug in to roll around and it's totally relying on the fronts to turn the car, throwing away all needed rear steer.  And then as I probably saw cause the spin last night the right rear gives out.  Netting it out the cars either going to spin or have to go slow in the corner(only got to see them go through 1 and 2.  Thinking about it more if the right rear's being used too much then it's about shifting forces to pull the left rear into the track or throwing away excess.  Since you never want to throw away anything which could give you grip and just redirect things, I bet the operation of the front of the cars chassis has to now come into it.  This sound really weird even to me but i'm now sort of keying in on how I saw the cars rear steer operate so quickly.  The whole point of rear steer is to alter the center line of the car and hang front weight over to the left.  If that car throws rear steer into it too quick without left rear grip to get the chassis realigned on it's new center line, then couldn't the loss of traction at the back actually be called, if you do indeed have rear steer, a rear push?  My thinking on it is if you turn the front and it doesn't turn you call it a push.  So if you do your thing throwing rear steer at it and the "actual working" center line of the cars not changed, then it's rear push.  That could be interesting or just another dumb thought that in a super late you can have not only just push and loose but push, loose and rear push.  Each would have to be addressed as their own on track problem or together if one cause for multiple things is occuring. 

 

ok trolls your turn       

[BaconBits]

You're thinking too much about the right rear. Focus more on the right front.

 

And most modern setup tend to be on the tight side.

Edited by BaconBits, 29 July 2019 - 01:57 PM.

[dirtstudent2]

You're thinking too much about the right rear. Focus more on the right front.

 

And most modern setup tend to be on the tight side.

 

Thank you for the comment.  I'll have to think about what you said.

[jo73]

It seems that most independent chassis class's today do work more of the RF corner. But I also think the air on the nose of today's cars means a lot. Torsion bar class's seem to depend more on the LR on corner exit. It would be interesting to see what the spring rates are for the different classes that say run lernerville. Shocks are the secrets in chassis set ups today.

[Hotrod11h]

The cars are setup off the rf being pinned to surface. Lr is typically light spring with whole Lotta turns into coil over. This provides the ass up front down that you see. There's bunch more to it but that's simple explanation. Shocks are not magic their still just a timing device/tuning device.

[Hotrod11h]

Forgot to add, today's cars are more about momentum then forward bite like used to be back in on the hook days

[dirtstudent2]

Forgot to add, today's cars are more about momentum then forward bite like used to be back in on the hook days

 

Thank you

 

If you ever hear this from somewhere other then me it and the concept is originally from me:

 

"All other things being equal who ever maintains the most momentum from turn in to the start of acceleration will be the fastest".

 

And taking credit for another of my theories you may now a days hear from others to include being now taught:

 

Without getting into more elaboration "stagger is able to work in a solid axle oval racer because there is a difference between rear tire surface speed". 

 

The basics of how tires on a staggered solid axle need to be loaded to go around an oval efficiently are also of my origin from learning and writing on the web for over 20 years.  My theories are correct and no longer just theory.  I have had the good fortune of visiting with many racers very famous and lesser known over many years who drive and crew chief.  All of who have validated the integrity of my theories.   

 

I these days of cookie cutter buy it from a catalogue racing I am one of the few who offer in both deeds and thought of how to go beyond using a catalogue racer to it's potential.  Theory is the only thing that can give you an understanding of what your service manual offers to make your catalogue race car go fast.

 

... ok trolls that should be enough to get this board moving a little?

 

So far the replies have been a pleasure to read and thank you for them.   

[jo73]

Hotrod, I think today a lot of guys can come in with the same spring rates but they all fine tune and that's were the shocks come into play. Some are very good at it, some are not.

[dirtstudent2]

The cars are setup off the rf being pinned to surface. Lr is typically light spring with whole Lotta turns into coil over. This provides the ass up front down that you see. There's bunch more to it but that's simple explanation. Shocks are not magic their still just a timing device/tuning device.

 

Been thinking about it Hotrod11h and I hope what follows is ok.

 

Am I saying it correctly if I say from what you wrote I see the front end being in control of both locking down the right front and determining how the car puts the back up in the air?

 

If I figure what I just wrote is ok then putting rear steer into the axle by moving the left rear tire forward is it's own thing controlled and set in the back?

 

Then those two things along with how you set camber gain at the right front to pin as best you can the right front tire into the track is a good part of or maybe even most of super late setup now a days?

 

I hope the above is ok it seems to fit in my thoughts with what I previously posted about how rear steer ends up being about both hanging the front weight of the car over to the left and the direction of acceleration you get from your axle towards the pinned right front tire?

 

All of the above if you notice ends with question marks.

 

edit:  Naturally all of the above and what you do with it depends on track configuration, available grip, available hp and driver skill/racing needs/preference?  

 

sure gets complicated 

Edited by dirtstudent2, 31 July 2019 - 01:10 PM.

[honeybadger1]

 

Been thinking about it Hotrod11h and I hope what follows is ok.

 

Am I saying it correctly if I say from what you wrote I see the front end being in control of both locking down the right front and determining how the car puts the back up in the air?

 

If I figure what I just wrote is ok then putting rear steer into the axle by moving the left rear tire forward is it's own thing controlled and set in the back?

 

Then those two things along with how you set camber gain at the right front to pin as best you can the right front tire into the track is a good part of or maybe even most of super late setup now a days?

 

I hope the above is ok it seems to fit in my thoughts with what I previously posted about how rear steer ends up being about both hanging the front weight of the car over to the left and the direction of acceleration you get from your axle towards the pinned right front tire?

 

All of the above if you notice ends with question marks.

 

edit:  Naturally all of the above and what you do with it depends on track configuration, available grip, available hp and driver skill/racing needs/preference?  

 

sure gets complicated 

How much world world wide webernet time do they give you at the ole folks home? apparently too much...  go eat some jello before you sprain your brain.

[jo73]

Well badger maybe you should start a intelligent conversation so it can be discussed. Maybe a good race you've been to ? Maybe a track that was racey all night or one that had a dam good hot sausage. I think your from up around clearfield, how about clate husted ? and how he put a end to Bob Wearing winning everything.

Maybe somebody can talk about the rumors that someone is bringing Blanket Hill Speedway back.

Hummmmmmm

[dirtstudent2]

I'm not likely to sprain my constantly exercised nimble brain.

Edited by dirtstudent2, 31 July 2019 - 04:27 PM.

[Hotrod11h]

Jo73: yes I can agree to an extent but there's still several adjustment that different. Rear end forward or back on either side, chain link less here or there, lead placement, and with stacked Springs spring rubbers and spring smasher the game has really changed. That's probably biggest thing different between 10 guys all on same chassis, the smashed #

[dirtstudent2]

Very interesting post Hotrod11h.  I've mainly only looked at what I've always been told about the difference between using torsion bars and coil overs being speed of operation.  But thoughts about solving or reducing a specific problem I've been looking at for years, always take me to coils separately or along with torsion bars for the purpose of having variable spring operating speeds.  I think what your explaining is when you mix variable shocks with springs that will operate in specific sequences your options become almost infinite.  And because of the almost infinite combinations possible everyone even with exact cars ends up on a different setup.  If I'm thinking about what you wrote correctly even a factory baseline is about impossible unless your on "the factory track". 

[Hotrod11h]

4m tech section you'll find some good info on spring smasher and numbers on the corners etc

[dirtstudent2]

Thank you

 

I found this among other stuff:   https://www.poske.co...-spring-smasher

 

 

I can see it as a reason for Dave Blaney wanting to get rid of torsion bars.  That being said knowledge, experience and theory proven or not proven theory still make the difference on track assuming cubic dollars are equal. 

 

If you do not have some sort of theory to apply what ever experience and knowledge you have, your experience and knowledge become applied random occurrences.