20 replies to this topic

[dirtstudent2]

Does one of the advantages of "rear steer" give you the ability to accelerate the right front harder into the track with the rear tires because it's been moved over to the left where it can better accept acceleration forces?

 

I've not found or read anything about it on the web and think it's my own original 'correct' thinking on it.  Am I the only one who see's it as a probably reason why Late Models have moved towards so much right front camber?  What I see is without the rear steer moving the right front to the left all the right front camber gain "Would Be Useless".

 

I don't know about the fancy dan Rocket Chassis and other chassis but along with it would come additional benefits if the front roll center was also moved to the left and forward.  Prior to putting effort into driving the right front into the track via acceleration, in my opinion thoughts on where the front roll center should be would be to the rear.  It also brings thoughts to mind of how dive and andi dive could work into the picture if you(which I guess you probably could) could have rear steer occur during a constant speed or even better yet during deceleration.  Up on the bars during the straight, then have deceleration dive plant the right front and continue it's planting with forces from acceleration. 

 

Really got me thinking about it and feel logically it would be/is a great way to get use out of the front end.  What better way to apply hp then to be able to do it and turn at the same time.  Sure you could over do the acceleration but who would and who would not, would depend totally on driver skill. 

 

dang, I think I'm correct on this.  If so it takes the magic out of fancy Dan Late Model front ends and why you would do what you do with the back.

 

nope can't be right   ???????

[dirtstudent2]

To be safe with the server update making sure you don't loose access to them, you all ought to right now save all my great writings. 

 

 

edit: smiley face added but not really needed

 

 

 

 

 

ps... Rick I can tell you've already done the upgrade. 

Edited by dirtstudent2, 25 September 2019 - 04:39 PM.

[DavyLee2]

The rear steer is achieved when the weight transfers to the front of the car because the left rear wheel drives ahead of the right rear
And it also aims the forward drive of the locked rear wheels toward driving out from under the car on the right side thus making the back end turn or go straight while the driver turns left
There is less need to steer with the front wheels when the back is steering so I think it’s mostly about what’s happening in the back of the car JMO

[dirtstudent2]

The rear steer is achieved when the weight transfers to the front of the car because the left rear wheel drives ahead of the right rear
And it also aims the forward drive of the locked rear wheels toward driving out from under the car on the right side thus making the back end turn or go straight while the driver turns left
There is less need to steer with the front wheels when the back is steering so I think it’s mostly about what’s happening in the back of the car JMO

thank you

 

edit:  I'll have to think on what you wrote.  Right now I don't see it happening that way but I'm going to do my best to make it fit for me.  If I can't i'll be back asking questions and I hope you won't mind.

 

My thought process when someone tells/explains something to me is to take it as fact and do my darndest to fit it into my picture.  If it blurs my picture I still don't discount it but shake my picture to see if the blur goes away. 

 

If the blur goes away then it leaves me to figure out why my part of the picture is now blurry.  When things really puzzle me I'll ask someone who isn't an owner about it in the pits.   Pit passes are the most valuable racing tool you can invest in.  

Edited by dirtstudent2, 25 September 2019 - 07:43 PM.

[dirtstudent2]

Got a question:

 

I see Late Models hiked up or not with rear steer(the left end of the axle moving forward) in both turns and while on the straights.

 

Are you thinking about and describing what you see(think) is happening on the straights?  

 

I think I can somewhat fit your thoughts into mine if I consider the car while going mostly straight.  Still looking at your input while turning.  

 

thanks again, this is fun

[dirtstudent2]

Still thinking on what you said.

 

 

butt while thinking this crept in.  IMO, there are only two things which turn a car to the left and they are the front tires and stagger.  Everything else helps it go straight or turn it to the right. 

 

 

... how's that for a new thought ?

[BaconBits]

Still thinking on what you said.

 

 

butt while thinking this crept in.  IMO, there are only two things which turn a car to the left and they are the front tires and stagger.  Everything else helps it go straight or turn it to the right. 

 

 

... how's that for a new thought ?

 

 

They run like 55% left side weight. That helps a bunch too. 

 

Also, you're still not looking int he right places. Every bit of a modern dirt late model setup is about taking advantage of the significant downforce the body provides. All of it.

[dirtstudent2]

I'm not over looking aero and the whole body being used for a wing.

 

Here's what I think is an interesting aero point which I think supports my thoughts on how with a Late Model the more turn you can get up front the more acceleration you can put to it.  I'll ask my point as a question.  Why is it the front end and enhanced aero is so important in giving lesser powered cars an equalizer in addition to a weight break?

 

From writing and thinking during this thread i'm going to say Late Models have the ability to put most of their hp to the ground and what limits them is their ability to turn the applied power.  Doesn't it seem logical that better aero up front is letting lesser powered cars apply their lesser power more equally to what the high powered Late Models can do?

 

Yes they also get more spoiler in the back but both at this point are telling me it's more about being able to apply power then having it.  Winged sprint cars on the other hand unless it's a heavy track are generally able to apply more hp then there is available grip.  Grip with a winged sprint car then becomes your ability to run the combined front and rear at its limit of grip.  Why do you see Winged sprint car drivers sawing on the wheel coming off a turn?  It's because there at the limit of combined grip between the fronts and the backs.  What the sawing of the wheel is doing is freeing up the fronts to eliminate conflict between the fronts and the backs pushing them over their total grip.  The freeing up of the fronts by sawing on the wheel allows for some of the total available grip to shift to the rear tires.  There able to get more acceleration because sawing on the wheel leaves more of the total grip to use with the rears.  

[dirtstudent2]

I just read this again and thought it was good so here it is again. 

 

Quoting me:

 

There are only two things which turn a car to the left and they are the front tires and stagger.  Everything else helps it go straight or turn it to the right.

[dirtstudent2]

How about another one?

 

Again quoting me: 

 

 

You can't accelerate off the left rear without slipping the right rear or both is understood. 

[dirtstudent2]

and one from Allen Dellinger I'll never forget answering a question from me many years ago

 

My question to him was, "What's the most important thing in racing?".

 

answer from him after a bit of thought:  available grip

 

I'll never forget the answer.

 

 

Do you all have any racing one liners?   by the way I do still do this for the fun it gives me and if a little bit of fun rubs off on you, ...  ?

[DavyLee2]

How about another one?
 
Again quoting me: 
 
 
You can't accelerate off the left rear without slipping the right rear or both is understood. 

That’s where step or stagger came in
Smaller wheel on the left rear equals the travel distance for the two rear wheels in a left hand circle
So there is no can,t ! There is only will you or won’t you !

And there is my one liner

[DavyLee2]

I just read this again and thought it was good so here it is again. 
 
Quoting me:
 
There are only two things which turn a car to the left and they are the front tires and stagger.  Everything else helps it go straight or turn it to the right.

There is another
Toe
And another
Left side weight
And another
Brakes designed to pull harder on the left than right
And another
Tire pressure
And another
Wheel base
And another
The WALL

[DavyLee2]

One more thing about the front wheels
They can be aimed straight but still turn left with Caster adjustment
And most cars require you to steer right down the straightaways to keep the car going in a straight line

[dirtstudent2]

Things which can be done to the back to adjust how stagger turns or rotates the car left are marked with a B

Things which can be done to the front to adjust the ability of the front tires by setting their slip angles are marked with an F

 

What I missed only thinking about the fronts and back separately which involve both the fronts and backs and you pointed out  are marked Missed

 

 

 

B That’s where step or stagger came in
B Smaller wheel on the left rear equals the travel distance for the two rear wheels in a left hand circle

F Toe

 

Missed Left side weight

 

F Brakes designed to pull harder on the left than right

Missed Tire pressure

 

Missed Wheel base

 

F They can be aimed straight but still turn left with Caster adjustment

 

 

 

All of the above boils down to how what you do changes each tires slip angle and i'll add I also think there's a separate lateral tire slip angle.  There's a name for combined tire slip angle and what I see as a separate lateral slip angle.  Making it simple and easy to understand setting a tires slip and lateral slip angle is done by either mechanically or chemically altering a tire or changing a tire to one which better fits on track need.  There are three basic things done to any tire to make it fit track conditions.  The first deals with compound and you match the compound or hardness of the tire to the abrasiveness of the track.  The more abrasive the track the greater durability needed from a tire.  Ideally you only need enough durability from a tire to finish the race.  The second is sidewall stiffness and you match your sidewall stiffness with over all available grip.  Less grip needs a softer sidewall and more grip needs stiffer side wall.  The last and most miss understood of all tire considerations is air pressure.  Tire air pressure first relates to how hard or soft the track is and the second function of air pressure is to help set sidewall stiffness.  Those three things with air pressure having a dual function are all you need to know about how you need to adjust your tires.  Knowing what to do and all the things you can do to adjust your tires per those three set goals requires infinite knowledge and experience.

 

Lastly in understanding basics of what needs done to match what your racing to the track are generalities which I'm sure I'm not covering all of them.  The first is stagger.  The generality is in general more stagger gets you more rotation from your staggered tires on their solid axle.  But stagger does not work or function because of how a styrofoam cup rolls.  If it did you could only race around tracks which are perfect circles.  Stagger is about your ability to apply weight to each of your rear tires at the proper time all around the track.  The next generality is over all wheel base length.  The generality is in general longer wheel bases lend themselves to longer tracks and enhanced acceleration.  The last generality I can think of at this time is having a shorter wheel base on the inside.  In general shorter inside wheel bases compared to the outside wheel base lend themselves to tighter turning.  In all generalities are just that which are things which in general lead you to being able to achieve a goal.  They are not and never should be considered set in concrete. 

 

Thanks for the conversation and what I reply should never be taken as something I saying as 100% correct. It's only how my current limited experience thinking about and having fun thinking about how oval race cars with a staggered solid axle work.  I don't mind being wrong especially if my errors are pointed out and I learn from it.  DavyLee2 your listing of thoughts helps me try to put things again into perspective.  Usually a wrong perspective but it ends up being my perspective which is ever changing. 

 

Thanks this again weather it's right or wrong has been fun to write,  And I hope it's fun to read and think about. 

[dirtstudent2]

Just remembered another turn left thing.  Considering and adjusting How the tires work with the banking and angling of the track also be used to help turn left.  An example would be positioning the right front tire forward and back to help time when turning starts.  The generality would be more banking and tighter turns might lend itself to moving the right front tire forward.  Longer less turning the opposite could be considered.

 

Another generality you might consider is in general are you going to want to bang a tire or tires into the track to initiate it doing work for you or will you need to ease it into the track usually considering a too quickly working tire will be prone to exceed it's grip.

 

more generalities I missed? 

 

I'm sure there are more and I think there just as important to recognize and understand as what specific adjustment do.  

 

hope i'm doing ok DavyLee2,  not trying to argue anything only offering thoughts on stuff

Edited by dirtstudent2, 27 September 2019 - 09:14 AM.

[Vigoda Motorsports]

Hopped on here to see if there was any talk about Keystone Cup and the only sign of life is another one of these long, tedious and boring Dirtstudent posts. These threads are the worst. Bummer.

Edited by Vigoda Motorsports, 27 September 2019 - 01:42 PM.

[dirtstudent2]

Live from Eldora. Thanks for reading my long winded bull.

[dirtstudent2]

What is the Keystone Cup? Never heard of it.

[DavyLee2]

Slip angle ?
I have decided to trust the patern on the Hoosier tire steer wheels to be the proper slip angle
I assumed they know and I never saw tires where somebody tried a different angled pattern
So I'll let that rest