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Some thoughts on tires hoping for some conversation about it


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#1 dirtstudent2

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Posted 18 December 2019 - 01:50 PM

No matter what you race if the track offers more then enough grip to handle your available hp, to be "free" and fast on the track you must reduce your tire grip to the limit of grip between your tires and the track.

If you don't the additional resistance of your tires engaging and releasing from the track will slow you down and your engine down no matter what you have for available hp.  It can also change how your tires work.

It's a balance between using available grip to either carry more speed in the turns and more speed over all and/or reduced available hp or increased available grip causing you to go slower.

Prep, cut, air pressure, etc., are all done to match your tires to what the track has to offer for grip. Some times you need more grip and sometimes you need less. The point is setting up your tires is not only about grip, it's also about how your tires will work with the track and last when track conditions change.

 

Racing isn't easy or simple.

 

 





 

#2 blue by you

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Posted 19 December 2019 - 01:29 PM

WOW!!! DIRT thats some deep shit right there. :wacko:  :wacko:




#3 dirtstudent2

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Posted 26 December 2019 - 08:11 AM

WOW!!! DIRT thats some deep shit right there. :wacko:  :wacko:

 

Thank you for the conversation here's a little follow up how too and use because hopefully there's now a little bit better understanding of need from your tires in a turn.  I think it will fit in nicely and logically for you.

 

Addressing and writing to the right front tire there is a relationship between mechanical movement and tire presentation at needed camber gain.

What you use(camber, castor, kpi, ackerman) and what you do is dependent on the track design especially when and how you get your right front tire involved with banking.

It makes the main trade off to always lean first toward the resulting camber and secondly when camber gain occurs. The driver can't do much about the amount of resulting camber. But they can via vehicle placement at turn in cause camber gain to occur at what I'll call, a good place on the track.

 

With the above being said all that's left are two things.  The first is about what your racing and it's designed in ability to make needed adjustments.  The second I hope from reading is obvious because of the hole in the process without it.  It's what really makes bringing together all very complicated. 

 

If you haven't already seen what's lacking it is the rate of camber gain and how difficult it is to set everything needed to occur at the right time.  With variables of speed and changing track conditions it's the skill of the driver that will set entry speed and all importantly the length, design and shape of the moment of turn in.  Fans like you and I will see it by the difference between a quick abrupt turn in to seemingly no turn in at all.  Though the mechanical rate of camber gain is hard set into the front end, the speed the set in rate actually occurs is controlled by the driver. 

 

Again thank you for the conversation and I don't mind at all if any of what I wrote is torn apart and corrected or debunked so long as some sort of reason for doing so is presented and we can learn from it.  

 

I also hope everyone had a Great Christmas which will lead into a Happy New Year as easily as the back tires follow the front.  :)


Edited by dirtstudent2, 26 December 2019 - 08:21 AM.



#4 dirtstudent2

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Posted 26 December 2019 - 05:15 PM

A little final thought on this whole turning process:

 

The difference between left right turning cars with a solid axle and no stagger or an oval car with minimal stagger and oval cars which use a solid axle and stagger is unlike cars which turn both left and right LTO (left turn only) cars can operate with the Left Rear always in contact with the track using if needed the LR to create all acceleration. The Right Rear can then under ideal situations and when final acceleration is not to come from the right rear, be used to assist the fronts in turning and/or even totally control turning.  

How much or how well a solid axle staggered LTO car can do the above is designed into the LTO car per vehicle construction rules and including the skill of the driver.  All the older books you can find to read are not based on LTO cars which can make understanding LTO's tough.

 

Though total LTO acceleration can be setup to come from the LR alone, total acceleration most often will be an average between acceleration from the LR gripping and slipping the RR or acceleration from the RR gripping and slipping the LR, or a combination of both.  How you setup to use acceleration from your two rear tires with their different diameters and different surface speeds depends on matching available grip and available hp to the track and racing needs.

The point is unlike left right race cars which normally must use both rear tires the same, LTO's have the ability to control and use each rear tire differently at all places around the track.   Other then now mentioning differentials all of the above assumes a solid axle.

 

 

 


Edited by dirtstudent2, 26 December 2019 - 07:09 PM.



#5 dirtstudent2

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Posted 26 December 2019 - 05:25 PM

Something to note is in all of the above there is no place where I told anyone how to do anything to accomplish something.   If you know how what your racing needs to be used to be fast, the rest is learning how to not just setup but to setup to allow what your racing to operate in a way it will be efficient out on the track. 




#6 dirtstudent2

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Posted 27 December 2019 - 09:18 AM

And threw this in here too from another thread:

 

 

 

I don't separate a corner into entry, apex and exit though there is still entry, a moving/changing apex and an exit dirt oval racing. I seperate the corner into four functions instead of parts:

1. The moment of turn in or the start of the corner. Usually you'll hear it's the LF that starts you into the corner but anything driver input, the bank of the track, changes in grip, etc., all can get you started into the corner. The start of the corner is something which causes the initial weight transfer from left to right and back to front, which is needed during the corner.

2. Next comes the needed control of weight transfer to the right which will cause your tires to operate for the next phase or function in the corner which is maintaining momentum. I often say and explain that if two racers on a track have identical equipment and potential with all other things being equal the driver who can maintain the most momentum between the moment of turn in and the start of acceleration will be the fastest.

The momentum portion of the turn is a must to be fast. Enhancing it is what always has lead to the old saying of "slow down to go fast". It is the portion of the turn which includes what left and right racings calls the apex and if used properly 'cannot' be used for acceleration.

If you get on the gas beyond what is needed to set your momentum speed or remain on the gas beyond your limit of grip during this part of the turn, it will mean a loss of over all speed. If you can accelerate during this part of the turn it means you have more grip that can be used to maintain additional momentum. Instead of the pedal to the metal you should be using the additional available grip to maintain more momentum.

3. Once you have completed maintaining momentum which may have been very short or though a long portion of the turn depending on track configuration and how your choosing your line on the track, the start of acceleration begins. It's the start of acceleration which determines the start of exit and the start of exit is not the completion of a turn but 'another' turn. The start of acceleration should be taken and considered using items 1 and 2 above no matter how short, quick or gradual you start your acceleration. It's also often said turn exit is determined by entry. Yes it is with the addition of how your maintaining momentum portion of the turn sets you position on the track for the start of acceleration. If you have set entry and maintaining momentum to include enough of the over all turning needed to complete the overall turn, your transitioning to acceleration while exiting will be mild because you do not have excessive turning to do while exiting.

4. The final phase or function needed is to accelerate. If you have maintained momentum and completed enough of the overall turning during 1 and 2 you will be able to maximize acceleration based on how little turning you have to do while accelerating.

How fast you can come off the corner depends on how long a straight your position on the track gives you. It also depends on if your acceleration can take advantage of gravity traveling down the track. And it most importantly depends on how much of the over all turning at an end of the track or each of the four corners you have left to do while accelerating. The more turning you have left the less you will be able to accelerate.

If written correctly all of the above should lead to thoughts of how usually through most of the physical distance at each end of the track you cannot accelerate. If you can't accelerate then you must be either slowing down or maintaining momentum. Fast becomes who can maintain the most momentum and best put themselves in a position to accelerate in the straightest line. The only trade offs to 1, 2, 3 and 4 above are racing trade offs where to gain position you must lessen your use of one of the above. A slide job which gets you from point A to B quicker but causes you to also slow down because you did not complete enough turning before needing to accelerate is a good example.

There is one and only one possible option beyond the go pedal to increase your speed during the momentum portion of the turn. It occurs when you use the grip available after initial turn in not to maximize momentum speed but to change your position on the track. If you increase your turning you or tighten your turn while maintaining momentum, the additional turning will increase over all speed the same as an ice skater spinning increases speed when they pull their arms in tighter. Those viewing result when well done will be not only seeing what's racing accelerate down the bank of the track but sort of shoot down the bank of the track. You can also use tightening a turn to increase your momentum speed depending on track conditions by how tight or tightening of the turn you make the or make an extended initial turn in. It's what your often seeing when you see something sort of accelerate into the turn and it best shows itself asphalt oval racing. It's all about how a skilled driver can choose to use the momentum maintaining portion of all turns to both position themselves for exit and control their ability to accelerate on exit.

 

I don't separate a corner into entry, apex and exit though there is still entry, a moving/changing apex and an exit dirt oval racing. I seperate the corner into four functions instead of parts:

1. The moment of turn in or the start of the corner. Usually you'll hear it's the LF that starts you into the corner but anything driver input, the bank of the track, changes in grip, etc., all can get you started into the corner. The start of the corner is something which causes the initial weight transfer from left to right and back to front, which is needed during the corner.

2. Next comes the needed control of weight transfer to the right which will cause your tires to operate for the next phase or function in the corner which is maintaining momentum. I often say and explain that if two racers on a track have identical equipment and potential with all other things being equal the driver who can maintain the most momentum between the moment of turn in and the start of acceleration will be the fastest.

The momentum portion of the turn is a must to be fast. Enhancing it is what always has lead to the old saying of "slow down to go fast". It is the portion of the turn which includes what left and right racings calls the apex and if used properly 'cannot' be used for acceleration.

If you get on the gas beyond what is needed to set your momentum speed or remain on the gas beyond your limit of grip during this part of the turn, it will mean a loss of over all speed. If you can accelerate during this part of the turn it means you have more grip that can be used to maintain additional momentum. Instead of the pedal to the metal you should be using the additional available grip to maintain more momentum.

3. Once you have completed maintaining momentum which may have been very short or though a long portion of the turn depending on track configuration and how your choosing your line on the track, the start of acceleration begins. It's the start of acceleration which determines the start of exit and the start of exit is not the completion of a turn but 'another' turn. The start of acceleration should be taken and considered using items 1 and 2 above no matter how short, quick or gradual you start your acceleration. It's also often said turn exit is determined by entry. Yes it is with the addition of how your maintaining momentum portion of the turn sets you position on the track for the start of acceleration. If you have set entry and maintaining momentum to include enough of the over all turning needed to complete the overall turn, your transitioning to acceleration while exiting will be mild because you do not have excessive turning to do while exiting.

4. The final phase or function needed is to accelerate. If you have maintained momentum and completed enough of the overall turning during 1 and 2 you will be able to maximize acceleration based on how little turning you have to do while accelerating.

How fast you can come off the corner depends on how long a straight your position on the track gives you. It also depends on if your acceleration can take advantage of gravity traveling down the track. And it most importantly depends on how much of the over all turning at an end of the track or each of the four corners you have left to do while accelerating. The more turning you have left the less you will be able to accelerate.

If written correctly all of the above should lead to thoughts of how usually through most of the physical distance at each end of the track you cannot accelerate. If you can't accelerate then you must be either slowing down or maintaining momentum. Fast becomes who can maintain the most momentum and best put themselves in a position to accelerate in the straightest line. The only trade offs to 1, 2, 3 and 4 above are racing trade offs where to gain position you must lessen your use of one of the above. A slide job which gets you from point A to B quicker but causes you to also slow down because you did not complete enough turning before needing to accelerate is a good example.

There is one and only one possible option beyond the go pedal to increase your speed during the momentum portion of the turn. It occurs when you use the grip available after initial turn in not to maximize momentum speed but to change your position on the track. If you increase your turning you or tighten your turn while maintaining momentum, the additional turning will increase over all speed the same as an ice skater spinning increases speed when they pull their arms in tighter. Those viewing result when well done will be not only seeing what's racing accelerate down the bank of the track but sort of shoot down the bank of the track. You can also use tightening a turn to increase your momentum speed depending on track conditions by how tight or tightening of the turn you make the or make an extended initial turn in. It's what your often seeing when you see something sort of accelerate into the turn and it best shows itself asphalt oval racing. It's all about how a skilled driver can choose to use the momentum maintaining portion of all turns to both position themselves for exit and control their ability to accelerate on exit.




#7 dirtstudent2

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Posted 03 January 2020 - 09:31 AM

764 views with just one comment?

 

Either all of the above is 100% correct or it's now miss leading and confusing a lot of people because parts of it are incorrect and not pointed out.

 

... or more likely even with 764 views it's being ignored considering the source.  :)




#8 jo73

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Posted 03 January 2020 - 03:00 PM

Personally I think you'd be able to turn wrenches on a top team because you think outside the box. The only way to get faster than the competition is to test and try things outside that box.


#9 dirtstudent2

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Posted 03 January 2020 - 03:40 PM

jo I talk to top wrenches on some of the top teams and your wrong about my skill.  just trying to learn stuff that's all.




#10 old man d

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Posted 03 January 2020 - 08:30 PM

ds2 i was all ways told if you want to know something ask questions. And you do just that nothing there the more you ask the more you learn. Hell, i"m as old as dirt and still learning.




#11 jo73

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Posted 04 January 2020 - 06:14 AM

We are all to old. Heck I remember when wearing showed up with that pro built chassis and won every race that year. Every time they unloaded it guys would be over there trying to figure out how is this thing beating us every week. I remember ed Sanger from Iowa showing up at the lernerville 100, with his little small block and just dusted the field loaded with big blocks. Or barefoot Bob mcreadie coming into Sarver with what everyone in the pits thought he didn't have a chance in hell to beat the big block guys. LOL.

Everyone of those were from guys that went outside that box. Everyone thought that will never work. Wearing's winning streak changed late model racing because if you didn't buy that Howe or jig a low you didn't have a chance. Eddie Sanger proved the weight savings over the front end and the balance of the chassis made all the difference in the world. Barefoot Bob, hell he was just bad ass and stomped everyone.

Ds2, you sell yourself short, today's SLM use as much air over the bodies as possible. Thing about it for a moment. The air we breath has changed racing more than any one thing out there.

Keep thinking outside that box ds2. I enjoy scratching my head thinking maybe we should have Tryed some different things.


#12 old man d

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Posted 04 January 2020 - 07:28 AM

jo thinking back the 8 ball car had guys shacking their heads, but it was also Bobs driving helped to get all those wins. Great car great driver made it a winning combo. Another driver who thought out of the box THE EAGLE, question was he ahead of his time or just that good.




#13 old man d

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Posted 04 January 2020 - 03:11 PM

ds2 got your message, and was a good read. I know what your saying about going up to a top wrench or driver and asking questions. I"m really not sure about to-days racers but years back you were able to talk to them about their cars. I had a real good friend who raced when we did. Later on we used to have coffee at a local diner and talk racing for hours and how it has changed from setups to driving styles. My point we could not have raced if we had not asked questions or tips from the other racers they were alwas ready to help. Now my question can you do this in to-days racing.




#14 jo73

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Posted 04 January 2020 - 03:35 PM

O hell no.


#15 Skull

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Posted 04 January 2020 - 09:36 PM

jo thinking back the 8 ball car had guys shacking their heads, but it was also Bobs driving helped to get all those wins. Great car great driver made it a winning combo. Another driver who thought out of the box THE EAGLE, question was he ahead of his time or just that good.

Herbie and Bob were both better drivers than Piovesan. By a wide margin.




#16 old man d

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Posted 04 January 2020 - 10:41 PM

Skull your right Bob and Herb were better drivers hands down. My point was Ron was thinking out of the box trying different things to his car not saying he was a better driver than Bob or Herb.  Like i said great car great driver.




#17 jo73

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Posted 05 January 2020 - 07:21 AM

Anyone at motordrome the night he went streeking ? Yea he had some wild ideas. If he ever could have got that power hooked up. Look out.


#18 old man d

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Posted 05 January 2020 - 08:21 PM

Sounds like something he would do! LOL.




#19 racer67x

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Posted 06 January 2020 - 06:54 AM

Anyone at motordrome the night he went streeking ? Yea he had some wild ideas. If he ever could have got that power hooked up. Look out.

was he the guy with the silver Corvette Stingray?

one night at Latrobe in '06,I was running my Late Model and feature time we had this silver 'vette as a pace car..he took us around pretty good then when they were waving him off the track he threw it down into one and took off..like he wanted to race!

it was funny as hell,lol

I later saw what I thought was the car for sale on Craigslist with this crazy ad,crazy price and pictures of him with his '69 Camaro Late Model,instead of more pics of the vette.. :)


#20 blue by you

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Posted 06 January 2020 - 10:05 AM

that was him....the wild man could'nt get him off the track.  :lol:  :lol: I was there that night.







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