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A little about how I understand a change in Stagger


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#1 dirtstudent2

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Posted 14 October 2021 - 12:16 PM

About a change of Stagger:

A change of Stagger does two things and only two things:
1. It changes the difference in the surface speed between your two rear tires.
2. It changes ride height at either rear corner of both rear corners.
a. It also changes everything changed when you make a ride height adjustment in the back.

That's all it does.

The rest is about why you needed to make a stagger change in the first place.

Racing is about being the fast thing on the track.
All other things being equal oval racing who is fast and who is not so fast is about who can maintain the most momentum and apply the most hp accelerating for the multiple velocities you take around the track.

Which makes being fast a combination of maintaining momentum and applying hp.
Stagger is an adjustment which first helps you to "roll" in a corner at a higher speed then others.
Secondly it can help with controlling your accelerating velocity while turning.
And lastly it can help reduce conflicting friction between your two rear tires and the track while on the straight.

Change stagger and to some extent you change all of the above.
In general though more stagger usually helps you turn if you need more ability to turn.
There is no perfect stagger unless your racing on a track which is a perfect circle.
Stagger is there for you to use and the rest is about where and when you need to use it.
Sometimes depending on the situation and how you are using your rear tires there is no need for stagger and even if you have it you may not be using it.
Fast is about maintaining momentum and applying hp accelerating.
What's important is how stagger can be used to maintain momentum and help you accelerate.
Whey you make a stagger change if your not doing it to maintain either or help one or the other your change will slow you down.

Find the problem or need for a change and then pick and choose from stagger and many other tools what is needed to fix your on track problem.

 

Did mention you need to get some popcorn.    :) 

I think it makes a stagger change explained with items 1 and 2 at the onset, mostly if not all about it changing the difference in surface speed between the two rear tires.

And a stagger change then becomes totally about directly altering how your two rear tires fight or don't fight with each other for control of grip.
In a fight there's a winner, a looser or it's a draw.

Which tire gets the most needed usable weight at the correct time determines the outcome of either increased or decreased change in the difference in surface speed between them.

With so much effort going into staggered solid axle racers be it sprints, super lates, emods etc., via shock lock down, coil bind, aero etc., or karts with the driver sitting on the LR to in any and every way "lock down the LR", isn't it all an effort to extend the length of time you are able to use stagger?

There is no reason to Lock Down or Pin a LR unless your going to use it to brake or rudder the left rear corner into the track for the purpose of gaining some rotation of the whole thing your racing around it.

Simply put stagger works by putting your LR into the ground so you can get enough work from it when your slowing down for the RR to roll around it getting you some rotation out of the back of your staggered solid axle racer.
Then it sets up for you to start your acceleration off of your smaller low gear left rear, which is ideal unless you have unlimited hp and unlimited grip at the RR.
Next comes after starting to accelerate off the LR in your turn more centripetal force from the acceleration instantly moving weight to the outside right side.
How you use that movement of weight from your initial acceleration while turning then becomes critical depending on your racing.
It's also when the mythical idea of balance comes into play.

Balance is about when you have gone beyond getting maximum use and rotation out of how ever your able to use what ever stagger you have.
Balance is about needing to use your right side tires balance in a way that your able to get needed turning from your front tires to overcome your loss of rotation at the back and to let you use the acceleration you get from the back in the direction you want to go.

My correct thoughts of brake, insert arc, turn, accelerate over just brake, turn, accelerate is about your still needing to get from point A to point B in the quickest way.
My inserting an arc is about initially accelerating up to a point where you can pick a point A and B to get to taking an arc at elevated speed instead of spinning your wheels there or grinding off speed when you to abruptly tried to turn and head straight or straighter between points A and B. Sure if you have the hp and the grip to put to the RR you can set what your racing on your RR and go or ring it about the top. But this is about low hp applications and even with the highest hp stuff it's going to be harder to get from A to B without inserting an arc and rolling at an elevated speed.

Lastly there is at some point going to be a place on the track where you are going to have to make another turn to head down the straight.
IMHO to be fast, even that last turn be it very short or sort of a continuation of your last turn onto the straight needs to also have an insertion of some sort of arc effort.

A stagger change or any other change is about understanding what you need at every place on a constantly changing track, to control grip at each tire. It's about how much grip you use at each tire, when you start changing the amount of grip at each tire and how long you to use it.

Getting faster is about correctly seeing on track problems and knowing what you have to work with to fix them.

Fast is about doing all of the above so what your racing can get around the track in the most efficient manner.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 





 

#2 realgearhead5y

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Posted 14 October 2021 - 06:45 PM

So here is a calculus question - Does the effect of stagger change when you have a Gleason spool?



AMF

#3 dirtstudent2

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Posted 14 October 2021 - 08:20 PM

So here is a calculus question - Does the effect of stagger change when you have a Gleason spool?


yes


#4 dirtstudent2

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Posted 14 October 2021 - 08:46 PM

.


Edited by dirtstudent2, 15 October 2021 - 07:07 AM.



#5 blue by you

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Posted 15 October 2021 - 09:20 AM

I think your ready for nascar dirt....WOW!!!




#6 Retort

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Posted 15 October 2021 - 11:08 AM

Damn, and all these years I thought the RR got ya in and the LR got ya out.

How in the hell did a dumb ass like me win so many races?

Must have happened by replacing the Gleason spoon with a Tiffin valve.....




#7 dirtstudent2

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Posted 15 October 2021 - 07:43 PM

Damn, and all these years I thought the RR got ya in and the LR got ya out....


IMHO all those years you were and r correct.

The RR does get you in by rolling around the pinned/ruddered LR.
See it?

And as I wrote your low gear LR does get you out until your high gear RR takes over.
How much you again rotate around the LR getting out or get needed turning from the fronts while accelerating, just depends on what you have to work with.


#8 dirtstudent2

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Posted 16 October 2021 - 07:09 AM

Another thought about the RR getting you into the corner.

 

It's not just about having stagger it's about how much you have and your ability to use it to gain some pinning of the LR for the RR to roll around.

The more stagger you have along with your ability to pin the LR to the track the more rotation help you can get from the back.

The less stagger you have the more your going to have to rely on unloading the LR using it less for a pivot point.

 

And then it's about how your entering the corner too.

If your rolling around the top with little stagger then sure your going to be on the RR and to maintain entry momentum you will do more unloading of the LR.

But then there's one of my Rule #1's and that's your at some place on the track going to have to slow down or you will not be able to accelerate.

Rule #1 says do your slowing down and turning going up hill(the bank of the track) and your acceleration down hill(down the bank of the track).

Yes every rule is not perfect and the exception is the proof of the rule.

But in the case of Rule #1 if your slowing down and turning anyway, there's no need to worry about scuffing off speed, so long as how your scuff it off gains you some help rotating into the corner.  

 

Yes the RR does indeed get you into the corner but the rest and the setup of it is what and how you use things that are available to you to allow the RR to get you into the corner. 

If you can use it the LR is great tool to help your RR roll on the path you want it to roll.




#9 dirtstudent2

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Posted 16 October 2021 - 07:47 AM

Talking about corners Fast is carrying the maximum load for available grip on your RR.

Faster is going beyond the load carrying ability in the back of the RR by sharing some of the total load with the LR.

Fastest is when the LR is carrying its maximum load in support of the RR.  

 

The above all revolves around available grip and available hp and maintained momentum.

What you do setting up revolves around your chassis ability to be adjusted to fit the above to the maximum speed your track offers per its offering of grip.

The last sentence simply means you need to know if the track will or has gained or lost speed and be able to adjust accordingly.

Adjust correctly and your fast.

Miss it and your result depending on your available hp is either loss of possible speed because of slipping tires or loss of possible speed because grip eating hp.




#10 dirtstudent2

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Posted 16 October 2021 - 11:12 AM

A new thought I'd like to share.

 

Racing the same as the evolution of various animals is about how many things you can do and use to exceed.

Succeeding at racing is not about how well and refined you are able to do one thing or a limited amount of things.

 

The first will give you a chance to rise above the rest.

The second limits you and when others overcome or equal your refined limitations will not only lower you on the food chain but will completely push you off the pecking order for food.




#11 dirtstudent2

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Posted 10 November 2021 - 09:02 AM

This board has been quiet so .... :)  

 

A quick thought to ponder:

Grip between the track and your tires can only eat hp, momentum and speed, if the grip is causing a conflict between tires for control of the direction.

Eliminate fighting between tires for control of direction and you can go faster.
Increase fighting between tires for control of direction and you WILL GO SLOWER.

That is beyond racing skills, what setup and driving is about.


Edited by dirtstudent2, 12 November 2021 - 07:29 AM.



#12 dirtstudent2

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Posted 13 November 2021 - 08:19 AM

Thinking about and writing about how tires need to be used efficiently on a dirt oval track is my entertainment.

I never know I'm 100% correct about any thought or writing and my hope is when someone sees error in it they tell me I'm full of it about some part or all of it:

>>And they explain why allowing me to learn their ideas and thoughts.<<

 

dirtstudent2

 

 

"Grip between the track and your tires can only eat hp, momentum and speed, if the grip is causing a conflict between tires for control of the direction."

 

I once asked a local famous and highly skilled local racer what is the most important thing in racing?

His reply after thinking about it for awhile was "available grip".

 

In all cases what a conflict between tires for control of direction does is reduce your available grip.

If you have more then enough available grip then it's a so what thing.

 

Here's a couple of examples one a Super Late example and the other Winged Sprint.

 

I'm sure you all have seen the huge camber gain used at the right front of Super Lates.

The reason it helps them is there is a conflict for control of direction between the rear tires driving the car straight and the right front trying to be burred into the track to turn the front.  The conflict is the rear driving the car straight and the fronts turning it make the end result the ability to add some acceleration or maintain more momentum in the turn.

 

I'm also sure you all have seen a Winged Sprint driver sawing on the steering wheel off a corner.

They are not doing it to control the direction of the car coming off a corner they are doing it to reduce the conflict for control of direction between the front tires and the back tires.

Coming off accelerating with all four tires engaged with the track the total amount of available grip the car has is at it's limit because of high available hp.

Because grip is being use at the limit and both the fronts and the backs are engaged with the track, there is conflict for use of the "limited" total amount of grip between the front and rear tires.

Sawing on the steering wheel puts driver effort into the front tires breaking them loose which reduces the amount of grip being used by the front tires.

The result is doing so also reduces conflict between the rear tires and the front tires for control of direction.

The reduction in conflict allows the rears to use more of the total available grip for acceleration.

 

 

 

   







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