78 replies to this topic

[dirtstudent2]

When you need to take cross out of a Latemodel, what's the most common way to do it, without moving lead? I don't care why you would be taking it out, just courious about where you would go first to do it.

[TheLegend]

Turns off the LR and on the Rr unless you had to Move a bunch then you could also take some off the rf and on the lf

[bd3d]

Turns off the LR and on the Rr unless you had to
Move a bunch then you could also take some off the rf and on the lf

If you want to do it without changing ride height then you need to first determine how much cross (or wedge) you want to put in or take our of the car, some guys call it rear bite (LR to RR) some call it cross or wedge (LR to RF) but they are both the same cause you can't change one without changing the other. There is a formula you can use to accurately add or take away cross or bite without moving lead or changing ride height. Kind of diffucult to explain on here though.

[TheLegend]

If you want to do it without changing ride height then you need to first determine how much cross (or wedge) you want to put in or take our of the car, some guys call it rear bite (LR to RR) some call it cross or wedge (LR to RF) but they are both the same cause you can't change one without changing the other. There is a formula you can use to accurately add or take away cross or bite without moving lead or changing ride height. Kind of diffucult to explain on here though.

To create a true " formula " as you speak of , you would have to take into account , motion ratios , spring rates , coil loads , etc , aka you would need an ivy leauge level formula and even then it wouldn't account for minute suspension binds or varying bird cage indexing based on rod positions, or you could use a scaling session to use trial and error to determine the effect of said adjustments

[dirtstudent2]

If you want to do it without changing ride height then you need to first determine how much cross (or wedge) you want to put in or take our of the car, some guys call it rear bite (LR to RR) some call it cross or wedge (LR to RF) but they are both the same cause you can't change one without changing the other. There is a formula you can use to accurately add or take away cross or bite without moving lead or changing ride height. Kind of diffucult to explain on here though.

Very interesting. If you can provide a url out on the net to a formula it would be appreciated. If not I'll be looking for it hoping to find one. I sure hope there's more comments on this. I tried to keep a complex thing simple, asking it the way I did to see where in general thoughts would go.

Thank you again and if you find a url please post it. The idea of shifting cross one way or another and knowing what to compensate to keep ride heights the same or close is great.

And again if you just wanted to take some cross out or put some in without moving lead, where would you think about going first to do it. My guess was most first would look to some turns one way or another in the back. But I don't know if that's really where most would go and I asked. More input would be appreciated. I have an idea the general answer might not be what most would think.

thanks again for the input

[superbenchracer]

To create a true " formula " as you speak of , you would have to take into account , motion ratios , spring rates , coil loads , etc , aka you would need an ivy leauge level formula and even then it wouldn't account for minute suspension binds or varying bird cage indexing based on rod positions, or you could use a scaling session to use trial and error to determine the effect of said adjustments

wow polebeater you talk a pretty good game. but when defending your poor weekly performance at ppms you always seem to have "missed the set up" and if you were dialed in you could easily win? if you were truely that intelligent to be commenting on scalling a racecar and bringing up motion ratios and bird cage indexing like some kind of expert wouldnt your results be much better?

[bd3d]

To create a true " formula " as you speak of , you would have to take into account , motion ratios , spring rates , coil loads , etc , aka you would need an ivy leauge level formula and even then it wouldn't account for minute suspension binds or varying bird cage indexing based on rod positions, or you could use a scaling session to use trial and error to determine the effect of said adjustments

It's really not that difficult. All you need is a set of scales and know how much cross % you want to put in or take out, does't take no Ivy league nothing. As far as all the other stuff you said I would assume they have that correctly setup already. It's really very simple! More so than you would believe. All he was asking was how to put cross weight in the car right?

[bd3d]

Very interesting. If you can provide a url out on the net to a formula it would be appreciated. If not I'll be looking for it hoping to find one. I sure hope there's more comments on this. I tried to keep a complex thing simple, asking it the way I did to see where in general thoughts would go.

Thank you again and if you find a url please post it. The idea of shifting cross one way or another and knowing what to compensate to keep ride heights the same or close is great.

And again if you just wanted to take some cross out or put some in without moving lead, where would you think about going first to do it. My guess was most first would look to some turns one way or another in the back. But I don't know if that's really where most would go and I asked. More input would be appreciated. I have an idea the general answer might not be what most would think.

thanks again for the input

Hole Beater is correct on a making slight changes lr in rr out will increase wedge, lr out rr in will decrease wedge. But if yu need to make more than a couple of percentage points then you will need a way to know how much to take in our out of the 4 corners to accomplish this with out affecting the ride height, you can guess-timate by taking some in or out of the four corners, but the formula I mentioned is a way to know exactly how much to turn each sping in or out to get the % changes you need without changing the ride height. I't done with a four cormer adjustment, you just have to know how much to turn each corner. Hence the Formula Not a formula that requires Quantum science, just a simple formula. Don't now of any URL's where this is explained but I'll look around on line and see if I can find anything.

[dirtstudent2]

Hole Beater is correct on a making slight changes lr in rr out will increase wedge, lr out rr in will decrease wedge. But if yu need to make more than a couple of percentage points then you will need a way to know how much to take in our out of the 4 corners to accomplish this with out affecting the ride height, you can guess-timate by taking some in or out of the four corners, but the formula I mentioned is a way to know exactly how much to turn each sping in or out to get the % changes you need without changing the ride height. I't done with a four cormer adjustment, you just have to know how much to turn each corner. Hence the Formula Not a formula that requires Quantum science, just a simple formula. Don't now of any URL's where this is explained but I'll look around on line and see if I can find anything.

Thanks. I looked but with no luck.

[manny]

Thanks. I looked but with no luck.

here is a simple formula. forget about crossweight. especially if you are a student.work only with wedge,

[TheLegend]

It's really not that difficult. All you need is a set of scales and know how much cross % you want to put in or take out, does't take no Ivy league nothing. As far as all the other stuff you said I would assume they have that correctly setup already. It's really very simple! More so than you would believe. All he was asking was how to put cross weight in the car right?

Wow wow wow !!!! Dude read what I said !!!! Creating a formula would be sitting there and using nothing but math to determine your exact wheel weight changes without using scales. I then went on to say the best bet would be to just sit there and spend time
On the scales to determine how much weight moves when moving turns at a specified corner .

[TheLegend]

wow polebeater you talk a pretty good game. but when defending your poor weekly performance at ppms you always seem to have "missed the set up" and if you were dialed in you could easily win? if you were truely that intelligent to be commenting on scalling a racecar and bringing up motion ratios and bird cage indexing like some kind of expert wouldnt your results be much better?

Actually I know a TON about suspension design and the dynamics of everything under a
Race car. Anyone who knows me knows how meticulous I am with details on everything I do. I would argue that knowing too much about this stuff can be a distraction and over complicate the issue. Your comments hold no water what so ever . If just knowing what stuff does would win you every race , Steve Baker would never lose, if just being able to drive a race car really well would win you every race , former stars national champion and winner of more large national events than you could count Davey Johnson would win every time he comes to Pittsburgh , neither of those 2 things happen, because racing on a dirt track requires you to adjust for
Conditions that you a guessing what they wil be !! Dirt tracks change all night , especially ppms , it's not unusual to see a guy run 5th or 6th in a heat and get the rediculous invert and start on the pole of the feature and win. Many times
I've had a car that could have won from the front row having a clear track to run the line I wanted to, unfortunately the car wasn't maneuverable enough to pass cars who are that close in speed. If you do not drive a late model at Pittsburgh you wouldn't understand and I'm not going to waste any more
Time explaining I'd rather just demonstrate in the track in 2013 when I finally shut everyone up and win a super late a main

[bd3d]

Wow wow wow !!!! Dude read what I said !!!! Creating a formula would be sitting there and using nothing but math to determine your exact wheel weight changes without using scales. I then went on to say the best bet would be to just sit there and spend time
On the scales to determine how much weight moves when moving turns at a specified corner .

Wow dude, Actually you would only need one scale to make the adjustments i speak of, all your weight measurement are done at the left rear corner. As I said it's really very simple. Yes it does take some math, I use one of them there new fangled calculators, I'm sure you have one of them don't you?

[bd3d]

here is a simple formula. forget about crossweight. especially if you are a student.work only with wedge,

Manny what are you considering cross weight, LR to RR? obviously wedge is LR to RF? But as I said in an earlier commet you cannot change one without changing the other, they are one and the same.

Edited by bd3d, 30 January 2013 - 08:29 AM.

[TheLegend]

Wow dude, Actually you would only need one scale to make the adjustments i speak of, all your weight measurement are done at the left rear corner. As I said it's really very simple. Yes it does take some math, I use one of them there new fangled calculators, I'm sure you have one of them don't you?

So your saying you only put a scale under the left rear to make your adjustments ?? Everything I stated is 100% accurate , all of the factors I mentioned will determine how much weight is moved by each turn on the coil over.

[manny]

Manny what are you considering cross weight, LR to RR? obviously wedge is LR to RF? But as I said in an earlier commet you cannot change one without changing the other, they are one and the same.

wedge is the difference between the left rear and right rear. if the lr scale says 500# , and the rr scale says 400#. then you have 100# of wedge. high wedge will loosen the car in. low wedge tightens in , on the brakes. it does not need to be much harder than that. never understood cross .. or why you need it set up a car. wedge is affected by every adustment youdo to the car . wedge is everything.

[TheLegend]

wedge is the difference between the left rear and right rear. if the lr scale says 500# , and the rr scale says 400#. then you have 100# of wedge. high wedge will loosen the car in. low wedge tightens in , on the brakes. it does not need to be much harder than that. never understood cross .. or why you need it set up a car. wedge is affected by every adustment youdo to the car . wedge is everything.

Wedge is everything on what kind of car ??? Why do 4 links have multiple holes ? Why are panhard bars adjustable ? Why do they make different spring rates ??? Why do they make adjustable shocks ?? You sir are a genious !!!

[bone22]

When you need to take cross out of a Latemodel, what's the most common way to do it, without moving lead?


I don't care why you would be taking it out, just courious about where you would go first to do it.

I thought wedge was when this bully in high school pulled my underwear up out the back of jeans and over my head....wait, that was a wedgy...my bad.

[TheLegend]

The dude who weighs his car with one scale was THE dude being hung in a locker by his underware !!

[bd3d]

So your saying you only put a scale under the left rear to make your adjustments ?? Everything I stated is 100% accurate , all of the factors I mentioned will determine how much weight is moved by each turn on the coil over.

No what I said was the weight change measurements are taken off the left rear corner, the car needs to be level and at ride height to do this so when I do the car is sitting of four scales, but you only need the left rear scale to measure the changes as you make your adjustment. If you put 10 pounds in the left rear it will put 10 pounds on the right front at the same tme, it will also take 10 ponds of the other two corners at the same time. The adjustmet is made with a four corner adjustment but with each adjustment you are actually effecting all corners at the same time. So you need to determine how much wedge you want in or out of the setup. then divide by 8, so for simple math lets say you have a 2000 pound racecar and you have 49% wedge and you want to increase it to 55% that means you need to add 6% to the wedge (LR to RF)correct? So 6% of 2000 pounds is 120lbs. divide this by 8, that gives you 15 pounds, after you figure this number out simply turn the left rear spring in until the LR scale comes up 15 pounds more, then go to the RF and turn that spring until the LR Scale comes up 15 more pounds, then go to the RR and take that spring out until the left rear comes up another 15 pounds and go the left front and take that out until the left rear goes up 15 more pounds. At that point you have increased your wedge 6% and you ride height will be exactly where it was before you started making your adjustments.

Edited by bd3d, 30 January 2013 - 05:28 PM.