76 replies to this topic

[superdirt]

I don't post much anymore but here goes.

 

The CT525 is a viable OPTION to help tracks save their Super Late Model division.    It is a competitive motor given the correct weight breaks and aerodynamic advantages.   It is also reliable like the steel block crates.   It costs around $7,000 plus another $5,000 of one time bolt-ons.    That's a HUGE cost savings over an unlimited motor.

 

As far as the spoilers go, IMO it is better to see big spoilers on Super LMs than no 604/602 crates as the top division.   When the 525 has the proper advantages, they can be as fast as the unlimiteds.  A Super LM is a Super LM IMO as long as they are the fastest division on the track.

 

The spec motor has failed because there was no price control.  It was originally a great concept where a motor was supposed to be able to be built for around $9,000.  But the motor builders starting "brand naming" these motors and the price shot up over $20,000.     The wonderful thing about the CT525 is that GM controls the pricing.  The price may vary $100-$200 from retailer to retailer, but nobody can jack up the price of the original motor other than GM....one source of price control.

 

The motor can help get teams back in racing.  Mel Minnick is a perfect example.  He got back into a Super LM this year at Roaring Knob with the CT525 and was competitive with a feature win.  That is one thing it will take to get teams to buy this motor....when it starts winning.  It also allowed Dusty Hamrick to move up to Supers from Crates in WV and he has won with the motor at Elkins.    Ronnie Johnson won numerous races with his CT525.  I got the thrill of seeing him win a $10,000, 75 lap race from 12th with one of these motors.  In that particular race, the CT525, specs and unlimiteds were all in the top 5.

 

The other thing it will take is to allow it at all tracks and series.   Western PA and Northern WV was a step ahead a few years ago as this motor was written into the rules at 7 area tracks.  

 

But even the current rules are not optimum to make this motor competitive.  It is getting a 100lb weight break at 2,250 for the unlmiteds and 2,150 for the CT525.   The 2,150 is too light and what needs to happen is that ALL the weight limits increase to get the CT525 at a realistic weight.  The other issue is that the national series do not have this motor written into their rules at a competitive advantage.   If they would do that, virtually every track in the nation would follow.  

 

The other issues with costs are tires, shocks and fuel.  None of that has been addressed yet in a Super Late Model.  

 

The division is fading out at an alarming rate.   No place is getting the car counts they were getting just a few years ago, and way too many good drivers have dropped out.  

 

Unlimited Super Late Models are not a realistic viable class for tracks to support with the crowds they draw these days.  Most racers have to sink a lot of their own money into it to keep the car going through the year.  Even on the national level I would venture to say that they prize winnings of most drivers only cover a certain percentage of the costs.   Going to an all CT-525 class (which they have started a series like this in the South) is not the best way to go either.  No reason to outlaw what is out there and we definitely do not need another class of late models!   Blending this motor in with the current unlimited motors and making it competitive is the best motor cost cutting option out there right now to help save the class as a weekly class.

[The Legend]

If you want more cars you need to police tire doping , penalize rough driving and stop with this last weeks winner starts 12th BS. Your already inverting the entire field by pulling sticks from a hat .... Then you have a track that only holds 500hp most nights and you want to let 625hp cars have massive spoilers and soft tires AND don't tech them lol. I prefer to run REAL events because they don't have horseshit rules like that and the enforce the rules and everyone is on a level playing field. As a racer that's all you can ask for .

[The Legend]

Is it my imagination or Have crate car counts dropped the last few years also ....

[BaconBits]

You mean like the twelve car Crate Late Model features that go on at many of the tracks that have them? The same Crate concept that was going to save racing for all human kind because it was so affordable? The same Crate concept that sucks resources and  money from the Super Lates? The same Crate concept that was going to be a stepping stone to Supers, but to date, the only two in the area I know of are Colton Flinner and Dan Angelicchio? The same Crate concept that adds nothing to the show other than to pad the back gate? And put money in the pockets of people like you?
 
You got a lot of balls to comment about adding yet more rules to an "open" division so that you can step in and make more money. It's not that I have a problem with you making money, just don't make it sound like you're in it to help the "poor racers", because then you start to sound like one of the promoters around here. There are people that field cars that don't have a ton of money, yet they get by. Now you are telling those teams they have to run at a disadvantage because some jabroni wants to buy a 525 crate motor? Who the hell is going to tech them with so many tracks running SLM's? You? Or are we going to see games played, like some teams that run Crate engines in the Stocks at Lernerville?

Pegher and Blair have basically moved up to supers too, although both run some crate stuff still too.

But I agree with the rest of it for sure.

[dirtstudent2]

If you want more cars you need to police tire doping , penalize rough driving and stop with this last weeks winner starts 12th BS. Your already inverting the entire field by pulling sticks from a hat .... Then you have a track that only holds 500hp most nights and you want to let 625hp cars have massive spoilers and soft tires AND don't tech them lol. I prefer to run REAL events because they don't have horseshit rules like that and the enforce the rules and everyone is on a level playing field. As a racer that's all you can ask for .

 

 

Though I can't know your mind, I think understand your thoughts on running real events.  I also think I understand your thoughts against tire doping.  Here's some food for thought from my experience walking the pits at what I think you would consider a real event at Charlotte last weekend.  I saw tires wrapped with Saran Wrap to hold in what ever they had on the surface of the tire so frequently walking the pits, I thought I was at a kart race.  I think many tires at REAL events are doped tires.  I only noticed it once from the grand stands on Friday, but I don't think the smell of bubble gum was because they were running nitro or because the modern day dirt fan next to me, gave up chewing tobacco.

 

I've been told by more then one well know competitor crew member, they consider Simple Green only a tire cleaner and not a tire prep.  The cat's out of the bag on tire prep and it's not going away.

 

I also think your on the right track when I see you putting available grip and available hp together in the mix.  IMHO, the two cannot be separated and are equal in consideration, for both setup and rules.  I'd like to see Late model's go with the higher hp  CT525 engine, keep chassis and weight rules but make body work open.  If they go faster and the current big engine Late's go away because there slower, then so be it.  At least the fans will get to see faster cars out on the track and drivers will get to race at least in one way open fast stuff.  I think keep over all body width and length, but let it go beyond there.  If an 4X8 sheet of Lexan is what's needed to be the fastest, then let the racers do it.  I'm tired of watching cookie cutter, buy it out of a catalog cars race.  It will still be the same talent out there and the same will probably run up front.  But I think if would both keep cost down, put some ingenuity back and let us fans see faster stuff out on the track.  IMHO, it's totally wrong to control the cheaper cars performance, so they don't make the expensive cars look bad and slow. 

[The Legend]

The shrink wrap keeps the tires fresh and clean. Tire juice is illegal and tested for at all REAL events

[MBRLLC]

So now your saying that the supers need to run more weight to accommodate the 525. Here is my thought on that. It's called super late model not 525 late models. If guys wanna run the 525 then it's their choice to do so but they have to run by supers rules no weight breaks, no large spoilers, no spill boards, etc. If you have to do all that crap just to be competitive them you shouldn't be out there or move to a different class.

[wildside]

Keep thinking that way because before you know it the open cars will be gone, or you will be watching 8 car features. If you want to even the field its simple, open 1325/44 RR or harder only, 525 open tire. And only tracks crate counts are down is raceway 7 average 14, Sharon average 10. MCR average was over 30, Eriez 20, ppms 20.

[wildside]

And one last thing its not that crate counts are down its more tracks have them and now you have, Rush, fastrak, open , and now cars series all splitting cars up, a few years ago you could buy a set of tires and run three nights, if you want to do that now you need three different brand of tires guys can't afford this so most run one night a week.

[brad hibbard]

I agree almost completely with doug ferrel's (super dirt) post at the top of this page.----with 1 exception

 

I don't think weight rules need to be changed to accommodate the 525 but aero packages to help the lower powered package compete seems reasonable and effective.

all that is changed is there are more cars on the track which equals more people in the stands

 

Its a blend engine and by comparison its an affordable price ---period

[msd]

So now your saying that the supers need to run more weight to accommodate the 525. Here is my thought on that. It's called super late model not 525 late models. If guys wanna run the 525 then it's their choice to do so but they have to run by supers rules no weight breaks, no large spoilers, no spill boards, etc. If you have to do all that crap just to be competitive them you shouldn't be out there or move to a different class.

[msd]

Believe it or not there are some of us that are not millionaires such as yourself but love the sport enough to make an attempt at it

[Space Racer]

The current open motor rules are working well lol. That's why the Open Late Model class has grown so much over the last few years and so many drivers have moved up to the class with their new $40,000 motors. 

Edited by Space Racer, 13 November 2014 - 09:13 AM.

[The Legend]

Open late models probably aren't viable for weekly shows. The promoters can't draw crowds and the random BS situations racers are forced to ensure make it harder and harder for people to justify spending that type of money to support tracks were they clearly aren't appreciated. Crate counts will be falling to as a majority of the guys racing those cars can't afford them either . The more hooked up the cars are the more money that needs to be spent to get every ounce of power to the ground. Crate cars should be racing on ungrooved unsiped d-70's . Letting those guys run 21's is retarded and letting them groove and sipe 55's is equally stupid. Brick hard tires bring driving back into the equation which reduces cost and prevents guys who can wheel but can't afford to spend from being discouraged and quitting.

[bmb18]

So the cost of a 525 is $7,000. And another $5,000 in accessories. So for $12,00 Someone can put a 525 into a chassis that they already have from running another late model class (either steel block or crate). Look around at the used motors for sale people. You really don't need a $40,000 engine to win races. A good 12-18* or SB2 415 will do the job just fine. And u can freshen it up instead of the deal with the 525 that can't be legally rebuilt. So u have to buy a new one. I just don't see where u would save very much.

[The Legend]

That's an excellent point. If you take your motor to Cornett to be freshened it's going to cost you 8k if you take it to a no name it's going to cost you 3 or 4 k most of that difference is that the no name doesn't have the reputation to protect so he doesn't replace as many parts. The very top of the line 10 degree spread bore piece is 42k and 8k to rebuild. They sell used with 1 cycle on them for 30-33k . That's the latest and greatest. I you buy a used 13 degree motor which has way more than you would ever need your looking at 20-25k. And your spending 4-8k per year to rebuild it depending on where you take it. If you break
The junk 525 you buy another and have another half ass street motor that your racing wide open. So yes if your talking buying a brand new spread bore VS a brand new 525 it's a big savings but anyone looking to buy a brand new spread bore isn't a guy looking Into a 525 anyway. The majority of the local latemodels run the same
Motors for years and years and rebuild them annually. VERY few of the local guys are dropping 100k a year on engines like is implied anytime the 525 deal comes up. If you want to run a 525 why not just run a 604 and run crates with a chance to win on ALL track conditions instead of praying for a hot sunny week and a favorable invert ? I think most of the guys getting out are doing so for multiple reasons and not just the cost, the cost may be a big one but not nearly the only reason.

[brad hibbard]

there is a factory rebuild program in place----controlled by Chevrolet performance

 

about 1/2 the price of new----still not cheap but once again affordable--------FYI

[redflagwreck]

The crate class is a JOKE!!!!!!!. You can put a  guy who has no driving capabilities in a brand new top of the line car and he will beat a veteran driver in a couple year old car just for the simple fact he has newer equipment.crates should have to run 1600 at all tracks to but all the cars on a even playing ground, making fair for those who can afford new equipment. the crate class has too many UNexperienced drivers that run over their heads and tear up other people equipment at race tracks at a weekly basis. Ok so the only cost in crate racing that saves guys money is the 604. Maybe Promotors forgot the if you want to win you better throw on a new tire for the feature, oh wait we also for got the light weight hubs, rotors, transmission, rearend, driveshaft, and gears, that are VERY costly. And if the average joe who cant afford to carry extras breaks a caliper in the heat race what happens? Simply he has to load up and go home because his buddy who runs super lates has extra parts but they will not work on his crate car with light weight components.

Guys would rather run in the back in a Super late just for the fact they know that their stuff wont get torn up. If you want see who has the most amount of talent at a race track go watch the guys in the street stocks and pure stocks. they dont have hardly any money and the get in their cars and put on the best show at the race track. all tracks should invert the field for the feature, just as the did back in the day at Morgantown.  Crate racing is ruining the sport. Where you start Is where you finish!

Edited by redflagwreck, 13 November 2014 - 05:34 PM.

[wildside]

I agree crates should be on brick tires, we have pushed for this for years. Redflagwreck we won 13 features this season and only 3 from front row, two from 12th or worse so saying crates are follow the leader is not true. Tracks need to prepare the surface better that's the problem. Open racing is no better freight train racing is the norm these days. Its not just crates its all classes

[55-jm2]

You do not need the lightweight, tricked out parts, brand new top of the line shocks and a "blue printed" (haha) motor to win in crate racing. For the most part, people spend their money on this stuff because they're not winning and they think it's horsepower and equipment that is beating them. 99% of the time, they are getting beat for other reasons, and don't want to admit it. I'm telling you, the cost vs reward of buying all that crap comes into play maybe once a year------and is not worth it. Stop wasting your money.

 

Joe Martin