76 replies to this topic

[wildside]

Very true Joe everything on our car was the same as our open car.

[3 link]

What amazed me the most after following crate racing all summer at MCR with 25 to 30  cars a week....was the fact that less than half knew what chassis changes to make to adapt to track conditions..........a lot of guys bought those 700.00 front shock (you pick the brand).....didn't help..........

 

I see crate as a good class....rush does a good job of teching....local tech guys could learn from them for sure...and apply the rules equally......

BUT....they need a shock rule....and a hard tire rule......a proper set up car and a good shoe can run on hard tires.....shocks are the one single hard part that 's way out of control for a class that says "crate motor" to reduce costs........As always IMO

[Parocket]

Joe is right, a good driver with a proper setup and good working parts is much faster than shaving 1/2 a pound from hubs.

 

I'd like to see a harder tire than the 21 on at least the RR for RUSH. However that should not be the 55, just something between those two.

 

I think the 525 would make better crate racing but its not a 604/602 those are cheap and plentiful for someone to get into the class.

The answer for the 525 is a simple restrictor plate. Its scientific and works. When I want to run a 604 series I run the restrictor plate when I want to run with open motors I remove it.

Nothing else should be adusted.

 

As for passing, crates have just as much as open cars unless you have real number your just blowing hot air saying that its follow the leader in one verse the other.

[The Legend]

On second thought clearly the crate guys have too much money so I think they should allowed a totally open Hoosier or AR tire rule with no rules against grooving siping or juicing and they should mandate TTX style shocks on all 4 corners plus the 5th coil .... Probably mandate full F1 style traction control that can push back on the throttle and strategically activate specific calipers to keep the car in line !!! While they are at it they should only allow Bloomquist , club 29 or longhorn race cars and they should make your buy a new one after every 10 races and put the old one in a car crusher so you don't sneak it in !!!! Anytime anything is mentioned to lower the cost you always have the couple guys with the most money arguing that it isn't that expensive and there's no reason to change anything !! Like the guy who wants compounds inbetween a 21 and a 55 lol luck it dude just do open tires since you have money burning a hole in your pocket . Wouldn't want to race on hockey pucks so you actually have to drive the lucking car instead of stomping and steering . Racing is honestly screwed because there will always be the guy willing to spend to oblivian . Crate racing wasn't supposed to be about cubic dollars but a few ass clowns piss in the stew for everyone . Anyone who wants to buy all the most expensive shit there's a division called super late ... Your stomp and steer shit won't work there you have to DRIVE 850hp on a track that holds 450 .. And you can't outspend everyone else ... Any asshole who argues crate cars should be on soft tires to really get them to hook up hard so any jack off willing to hold the pedal down can go fast and wreck everyone else's shit should slam their dick in a steel door ... Honestly !!

[LM RACING]

Single valve oil shocks, standard aluminum hubs with steel solid rotors and willwood calipers, rock hard tires, regular aluminum quick changes and trans, required 6000rpm chip and 93 octane gas is a good start to get the crates back in line with the reason the class was started in the first place. The racers keep pushing the grey areas and what started as a great concept was quickly ruined by the people with big pockets.

[redflagwreck]

mandate e85 guys you can get just as much power on e85 as vp latemodel plus and e85 is super cheap and can be bought at most gas stations

[The Legend]

Red flag the problem is there's a couple guys comfortable spending 14.00 a gallon for fuel and paying 100 to enter a race that pays 75 to start. Those couple guys will bitch and scream from the mountain tops against any common sense measures like running a 10-1 motor on pump gas

[LM RACING]

mandate e85 guys you can get just as much power on e85 as vp latemodel plus and e85 is super cheap and can be bought at most gas stations

I believe a few teams had problems with the e85 when they first started using it. Not sure of what the issues were but it may have just been the carb adjusted or jetted wrong. But there is nothing wrong with mandated 93 octane. $14 per gallon fuel is not necessary.

[brad hibbard]

first problem is you cannot tech octane at a reasonable cost

 

next problem is (IF) you could tech octane --the fuel companies would build a fuel to meet your octane spec but be pounded with oxygenating additives to increase power 

[wildside]

VP crate or chp is not 14 a gallon its around $8 talked with a few guys that run e85 they use double the amount of fuel we use so what's the savings? If we use 3 gallons for 25 lap feature that's $24 if they use 6 at $289 gallon that's a real big savings. Shocks sure put everyone on a spec shock and cost teams even more money, now your out the money you already have tied up in the shocks you have. And the teams with money will just buy a bunch of different valve spec shocks.

[redflagwreck]

Want to save costs You'd think fastrak would wake up smell the roses and let guys run rush tires. car counts would go up!
 

[dirtstudent2]

wildside wrote:   "VP crate or chp is not 14 a gallon its around $8 talked with a few guys that run e85 they use double the amount of fuel we use so what's the savings?"

 

 

I don't know the answer to this question I'm going to propose.  Your saying there's a 3 gallon usage difference, instantly made me think of the question.  3 gallons difference towards the end of the race also equals a 25# weight difference, with a gallon of gas being slightly over 8#'s in weight.

 

I can see it maybe working two ways.  With limited hp to begin with would loosing 25#'s give those using e85 an advantage in weight at the end of the race?  The other question which comes to mind is would loosing 25#'s at the back of the car effect setup, to the extent you'd have to plan on a handling change at the end of the race?

 

Don't know the answers, but the questions seem as of now anyway, to be worth asking.

 

edit:  yeah, I figure both types of fuel and having a weight limit, would make it necessary to make what ever fuel is burned off, not hurt you at the scales.  But 25#'s is 25#'s and little though it may be, I think everything matters and small advantages add up.  If they didn't, nothing would matter except big differences.    

 

 

edit again:  After writing what I did; for me the answer is not having to loose or setup for the loss of 25#'s, would be the way to go.  For only the reason of not loosing 25#'s during the feature, e85 would >not< be the fuel I'd choose to use.

 

That's assuming engine performance really isn't all that much difference between them.  

 

It also makes me think, if there is a difference in performance between the fuels, some of the difference is because of the weight change and a factor maybe not generally realized.  One thing I always look at, especially when watching a crate race, is how acceleration differences on the back stretch show themselves to us fans in the stands.  Especially in a crate race, the not so good looking car seems to have just as much acceleration as the shinny car.   The difference in performance to me anyway, occurs on turn entry and turn exit.

Edited by dirtstudent2, 14 November 2014 - 09:42 PM.

[dirtstudent2]

All that writing made me think of another question I've been wanting to ask.  It's a fact fuel weight is going to be reduced during the race, because of fuel usage.  To limit how the reduction of fuel effects setup, would you want the fuel tank towards the left side of the car, or towards the right side of the car?

 

And would a taller narrower tank be better or a wider flat tank be better.  The question between tall or wide, assumes you would equally be able to pickup fuel from each tank and fuel sloshing around would not be a problem.  Thanks, it's great to have someplace to ask about stuff.

 

lol... edit, edit, edit.  ... For the first question preferring the tank in the center, left and right, is not an option.

 

Again, I'm asking because I don't know the answer, not because I think I know the answer and I'm looking for fun and BS.  

Edited by dirtstudent2, 14 November 2014 - 09:41 PM.

[The Legend]

There's technology coming that's 1500+ per shock and you would ideally have 3 separate builds for the rr and rf. The stuff guys are using now is the infancy of technology. There should be 1 spec shock per wheel period . A non adjustable monotube with a specific valving . The point of crate racing isn't to make the car bolted to the race track it's meant to be a less expensive way to race late models. If you have spec shocks and 1600 or harder tires ungrooved and unsiped you will make the cars harder to drive and negate any advantage of the low drag light weight expensive components. But that's not what the couple guys who can afford to outspend everyone want

[The Legend]

I can honestly give a shit less because I'm not interested in ever racing a crate car so I don't have a dog in the fight but that allows me to look at it objectively instead of from the point of view of having bought a certain shock already. Those Ida's you guys are running will be obsolete in a few years anyway with the high tech stuff coming . There's no place for it in crate racing.

[Skull]

The 525 motor for Supers is not a bad option, and I'm not necessarily a conspiracy theorist by nature but, a few things about it make me wonder.....

 

By giving them a weight break and spoiler advantage, who is that helping, really? Like Hodgkiss said, not the money guys, they aren't going to buy a 525 anyway. It's the low dollar guys, or the guys that make up most of the SLM fields around here. Why target them? Because they are the largest potential customer base. Why try to make the purchase of GM 525 Crate motor more attractive? I'll answer my own question with a question; why do we have tire rules, really?

 

I've started to wonder about the proliferation of all this crate shit for the last few years, particularly after what has transpired in Lernerville's Stock class and the completely retarded rules breaks that these "legal" Crate motored cars receive. Why would a track push for teams to run a 602 or 604 GM Crate so hard, especially in a successful division that averages 24/26 teams per week? The answer has to be the track is getting a cut. 

 

That's my take and I'm sticking to it unless and until someone lays out a viable, believable argument other than, "promoters are just trying to help the poor racers with the expenses they incur". Insert YouTube video of the crying masses of race fans and teams here.

 

You can not protect racers from themselves!!!! How many times does it have to be said? The more restrictive you make the rules, the more they will spend, cheat and steal to break them to gain an advantage. It's what racers do. You're lucky most tracks perform a safety inspection, let alone teching weekly for shock rules, tire doping rules, fuel rules, etc. The only teams that get hurt by these rules are the budget guys, and they are the guys that fill the fields every week. Chase them off, then turn out the lights.

[dirtstudent2]

"Why would a track push for teams to run a 602 or 604 GM Crate so hard, especially in a successful division that averages 24/26 teams per week? "

 

Answer IMHO:  Because they can reduce payout, increase profits and think fans will pay to come in anyhow and watch, quote>"good racing"<unquote, >because the fans are not interested in "fast" racing.

 

The banter back on this board has time and again, been about how "great" the racing is and who cares about if it's fast or not, so long as it's good racing.  

 

I think fans really do care.  A I think they will only support "good" racing over "fast good" racing, on a basis of it's the only game in town, there's not much better fun around to go watch or they just feel like going to a race because they haven't been to one in awhile.  What's the attraction for a fan to go to PPMS other then it's fast?  What does PPMS promote?  Read their ad's on here, they promote "fast".  Do you really think PPMS will put controls on crates and change the game for their customers from "fast" to "good" racing.  IMHO, they'd kill what front gate then have.

[The Legend]

They have no front gate. Talking about their front gate is like talking about their promoters 6 pack abs lol

[No Rookie]

If 6 pak abs are good.....would 1/4 keg abs be better??????

[dirtstudent2]

They have no front gate. Talking about their front gate is like talking about their promoters 6 pack abs lol

 

 

I've been there for their sprint shows this year and the late model show, don't remember which one... it's the one where Bloomer hit the rail going into turn three and still finished the race... anyway, THE place has HUGE grand stands and taking that into consideration, they had a very good crowd, every time I was there.

 

by the way, I totally enjoyed watching the late models there and left the WoO Late show at Lernerville before it was over.  I left Lernerville because IMHO it was boring and not worth seeing the end of it, just to beat the traffic getting out.  

 

PPMS has a jewel in the rough right now and IMHO for next year just needs some cheap polish on the place for the fans.  After that, depending on their interest in promoting, I think the sky is the limit for the place.  I personally do like watching a race there.

 

 

ps... this old 69 year old man finished his deck, ripping up 30 year old 5/4 and jacking it up to level it all myself and I just put in some xmas lights for my wife and myself to enjoy.  Thank you very much for the info you offered me early on it.

 

by the way the deck is 36x18+ with a bridge going out from one of the two doors. ...

Edited by dirtstudent2, 15 November 2014 - 05:20 PM.