58 replies to this topic

[The Legend]

The " average stiff " never could truly afford it but was able to scrape by. But in today's instant gratification society people insist on racing classes they can't afford. What has died off is fabrication skills and hard work . What used to get built is now bought

[splitbacks]

Tracks are already going out of business and you liberals want to raise payouts

 I love when guys bring the political aspect into this.  Take a look in my gun safe, I assure you I'm no liberal.  I just know that I want my kids to be able to enjoy a great Saturday night of racing.  And I don't have to own a business to understand that to make a little money, you have to spend a little money.

[The Legend]

No you DO have to own a business to see that statement has 50 qualifiers that need mentioned before it becomes true. That's like saying every dude needs to smoke 10 other guys hammers just to make sure he doesn't like it . Spending money guarantees nothing . By your theory me buying expensive golf equipment will make me tiger woods in his prime

[splitbacks]

Good job not understanding context.  Your smoking hammer analogy was brilliant insight, unless you understand that's what it takes

[race ace]

I promised myself i would not reply to this subject, but i guess i am allowed an opinion on this as much as anyone else . there have been a lot of good points made by a few people on this including the legend himself and i never agree with him but i will give him at least a shout out for his opinion , the reason car counts are down at least in the street stock class is because all the tracks  threw the rule book out the window . when Hummingbird had a reasonable set of rules there were 20 cars or more but by allowing the rules to be  bumped up every year they lost all the older cars  i  refuse to run against a car with heims end trailing arms and a bert transmission in a street stock if you want this stuff fine then make a super stock class so you can draw these cars but from what i have seen by the 10 cars at marion center and the 8 to 10 cars at hummingbird your rules package left us little guys in the dust . now i am not saying to change the rules this year but maybe to bring the cars back you need to reign them  a little , how about this a set of stock trailing arms and a 750 vaccume secondary carb or pick a carb and stick with it maybe a set of 4 hard tires pick a compound and check them when you scale the cars like Marion center does to their crate latemodels after the feature . you built the wall to high now fix the problem because more cars mean more fans that come with the cars and that means more money for the track owner.guys with cars over 5 years  old have no chance of winning anything  so they take their engine and put it in a  old late model  at least they can make a buck for a nights work .happy racing to you!!!

[ramsey31]

   The economy has everything to do with racing.   I will also tell you first hand from someone who is directly in the freight industry, you better hold on, and in many areas, if things do not change soon....layoffs are coming.   The last 2 months have been horrible for freight, and unless you work in the industry, youd never know it.   Sponsors have always been hard to find, now given a weak outlook near term do you honestly think they are opening their pockets?    Unless Billy Bob car driver has a trust fund, or lottery winnings, do you think most people looking at a layoff are just chomping at the bit to buy a new engine or car?   To come up with the $100+ it costs each week to just show up at the track?

 

Sure things like side-by-sides and other recreational vehicles are getting very popular, and they may have in fact taken some away from the racing arena, but ill pull all my cards down that the real cause of fans and drivers slumping....is that money keeps getting thinner.

Edited by ramsey31, 27 August 2015 - 01:42 PM.

[ramsey31]

ace...no offense but those things didn't show up overnight.   If after a couple years you cant keep up with the way a class is evolving, maybe its time to look at a class you can afford.   The local tracks are slammed full of cars that have no chance of ever running competitive in the class they choose because their ego is keeping them there.   This world is full of people living in houses they cant afford, and driving cars they cant afford, just to impress the neighbors.   Its also full of racers who do the same.  

 

This whole people are migrating to the upper class because it pays more money is a joke.   Milk that cow till its done.  If all of the cars at a track move into Lates because it pays more...that doesn't bring more into the track, its just more cars taking away from the purse.   It wont last.   Fan counts will not increase because you now have 45 late models, 30 of which are pure stocks with a quick change

Edited by ramsey31, 28 August 2015 - 09:22 AM.

[NotToday]

Yep there is no way the economy can keep up with piss poor spending habits.

[Walt Wimer]

This problem is there in every class at every track.  Every year Lernerville has a 2-4 Sprint Cars that get lapped every night in their heat race.  Do those guys belong in a Sprint Car??? No Way!!, but some keep coming back year after year rather than moving to a class where they might be able to run competitively!!  Also, in the case of Sprint Cars, their racing elsewhere would make thing much safer for all concerned!!

 

GOOD RACING TO ALL!!

 

Walt

[BRC27]

I agree with Race Ace 100%.  Ramsey31 just doesn't get the point.  A purestock from 2015 would beat a street stock from 2005!  These older guy that didn't have the money to "evolve" like you say still can't compete in the lower class.  These classes shouldn't be evolving at all.  Back in the 90's there were rules in place that kept these classes competitive and promoted a "graduation system".  There were claimer rules that kept the cost of builds down, and there where rules in place that stated if you win more than 5 features a year you have to move up in class the following season.  This kept the Stocks competitive.  If drivers wanted to "Evolve" they should've bought a Late Model or a Modified.  But instead they were too used to being the top dog in their class and were reluctant to move up.  A lot of them were friends of track owners and talked them into opening up the rules of that class.  Just so they didn't have to move up.

 

As for your statement that People aren't just moving up because of more money you're wrong!  I know because myself and about 5 or 6 others did the same thing.  A lot of it is Jeff Taylor's fault.  He created a class of latemodels that isn't really a crate and it's not as fast as a steel block, and then closed the gates.  now you have about 10 drivers that don't belong in Steel blocks.  I bought a latemodel to move up, and fortunately had enough commonsense to know that LM is just too big of a jump.  It was cost effective for me to Run PS when AMP was open.  The track is 5 min from my garage.  But now that I have to tow 35-40 min away just to get to hummingbird, it doesn't pay to tow a PS. 

 

I'm not saying that I need to make money racing!  It's a hobby and unless you have serious sponsor dollars coming in and are winning all the time like the VSI boys, you're not going to make any money.  But it cost me about $125 to tow, pay pit fee, and pay for fuel regardless of running latemodel or running Purestock.  LM you're guaranteed $100 if you make the show $50 if you don't.  PS youre guaranteed $40?  I'm sorry but I'll take losing $30 a night compared to losing $80.  IMO $30 for a Saturday night out is what I'd spend to take my girl to the movies anyway.  I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels this way.  Look at Hummingbird alone.  You have 30LM's this year when you were lucky to have 15 last year!  Dan Smeal, Steve Arthurs, Joe Kot, Curtis Teats.  All guys that moved up from Street stock to make more money.

[ramsey31]

I very much get the point.   This is racing.  Its a COMPETITIVE SPORT.   You go out each week to Win, period.    You sit in the car on the grid and try to figure out how to get to the front.   Are you part of this new breed racer who is perfectly fine joy riding around the track to look at billboards and listen to the radio, with absolutely no goal of ever making it to the front?   I have seen chassis-style cars in the street stock class since atleast 1991, and Floyd Kline and Cheyenne Reed dominated with those cars every single week. My dad, RIP, ran a fully body 75 Malibu, and never had a chance of getting to the front.   The following season, the car was sold and the new owner won points and multiple feature wins in the Pure stock class, with the same stuff my dad ran.  Who do you think had more fun?  Ill give you a hint....it wasn't my dad.

 

Here is the real question.  How many kids and families do you think are impressed with their dad/husband spending the money they do, and running in the back every week?   This 11 year old kid sure wasn't. Think about that. It not just about collecting tow money, its about teaching your children that if they want it, they go after it!  Most families don't care what class you run, they care that the money they are sacrificing is getting something in return.   My mom mostly sat silent when my dad packed the track, my mom screamed her head off when I was running top 3.

[TOPGUNRACER]

I agree with Race Ace 100%.  Ramsey31 just doesn't get the point.  A purestock from 2015 would beat a street stock from 2005!  These older guy that didn't have the money to "evolve" like you say still can't compete in the lower class.  These classes shouldn't be evolving at all.  Back in the 90's there were rules in place that kept these classes competitive and promoted a "graduation system".  There were claimer rules that kept the cost of builds down, and there where rules in place that stated if you win more than 5 features a year you have to move up in class the following season.  This kept the Stocks competitive.  If drivers wanted to "Evolve" they should've bought a Late Model or a Modified.  But instead they were too used to being the top dog in their class and were reluctant to move up.  A lot of them were friends of track owners and talked them into opening up the rules of that class.  Just so they didn't have to move up.

 

As for your statement that People aren't just moving up because of more money you're wrong!  I know because myself and about 5 or 6 others did the same thing.  A lot of it is Jeff Taylor's fault.  He created a class of latemodels that isn't really a crate and it's not as fast as a steel block, and then closed the gates.  now you have about 10 drivers that don't belong in Steel blocks.  I bought a latemodel to move up, and fortunately had enough commonsense to know that LM is just too big of a jump.  It was cost effective for me to Run PS when AMP was open.  The track is 5 min from my garage.  But now that I have to tow 35-40 min away just to get to hummingbird, it doesn't pay to tow a PS. 

 

I'm not saying that I need to make money racing!  It's a hobby and unless you have serious sponsor dollars coming in and are winning all the time like the VSI boys, you're not going to make any money.  But it cost me about $125 to tow, pay pit fee, and pay for fuel regardless of running latemodel or running Purestock.  LM you're guaranteed $100 if you make the show $50 if you don't.  PS youre guaranteed $40?  I'm sorry but I'll take losing $30 a night compared to losing $80.  IMO $30 for a Saturday night out is what I'd spend to take my girl to the movies anyway.  I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels this way.  Look at Hummingbird alone.  You have 30LM's this year when you were lucky to have 15 last year!  Dan Smeal, Steve Arthurs, Joe Kot, Curtis Teats.  All guys that moved up from Street stock to make more money.

Some guys move up because they want the challange.Smeal and Kot have won champoinships and many features ,Arthurs has won some features, this year he got a ride in a LM.There other guys that should not be on the track.Put a cube limit and stock block on the street stocks that would be a good first step. Put the pure stocks back on street tires.

[T-440]

As someone else already posted, one of the worst things about limited divisions, is that as soon as the word limited is put in front of the division, the second thing that happens is they limit the payout.  Lowering the cost to get started, and the cost to compete on a weekly basis is a great thing, but if the payout is reduced, what makes it any better than what the tracks currently have?  If a track pays $1000 to win and $100 to start for late models, and then starts a lower cost alternative class that costs half as much to compete in, then offers $500 to win and $50 to start, does it really help?  Sure the cost to get started is lower, but, you still have to pay the same amount for fuel to get to the track, the same amount for pit passes, probably the same amount or close to the same for tires, and the bolt on components of the car cost just as much as the regular late models. 

 

I understand that with the steel block late models in my area, the only thing limited is what the engine block is made of.  Same with the crate lates, the only thing they really lowered the cost of was the engine, all the other components can be the same as a super late.  I really liked the AMP Semi-Lates, and I was disappointed that Hummingbird or Thunder Mountain didn't jump on that division when AMP closed.  I really think if they stuck to the rules, and had a good tech program, that class was going to continue to grow.  I really like the IMCA Sport Mods too.  Both the AMP Semi-Lates and the IMCA Sport Mods are divisions that cost quite a bit less to get started in than their more unrestricted big brother classes.  I would throw the 305 sprints into the same category.  I don't know what AMP had for a Semi-Late purse, but all the IMCA tracks I look at, the Sport Mod purse is half or less than the modified purse.  I'm not saying that teams need to get rich racing these divisions, or any division for that matter, but holy cow, if you finish last in the late model feature at most tracks, you don't even get enough money to buy a new tire.  Some of the lower divisions, even if you only had the driver and one crew guy, if you finish outside the top 5 you don't even make enough to cover your pit passes.  I'm not saying teams need to get rich, but they need to be able to offset some of the costs to compete. 

 

I think both the AMP Semi-Lates and the IMCA Sport Mods are divisions that could succeed in this area over time.  I also think the 305 sprints have a huge future, but not at $400 to win and $100 to start.  Ultimately, I think the tracks that are going to survive are the ones that can afford to pay enough to have good fields of the top tier divisions, or tracks that can find a way to lower the cost to compete and still offer enough in payouts to make the class desirable for teams to compete in it.

[Wayne McDonald]

Some guys move up because they want the challange.Smeal and Kot have won champoinships and many features ,Arthurs has won some features, this year he got a ride in a LM.There other guys that should not be on the track.Put a cube limit and stock block on the street stocks that would be a good first step. Put the pure stocks back on street tires.

I bet Smeal,Kot andArthurs made more money in street stock

[animalgfx]

We beat this topic to death... It is about rules and it is about money.. BUT!!!
I have spent countless hours researching and doing homework to be as fast as I can possibly be with minimal money.. And I'm telling you if you were to ask my engine builder.. There are pure stocks that had WAY better engines than mine... We didn't set the world of fire.. But we were always a top ten car and a regular top 5 car..
I heard it said today that VSI set the bar high for the money they were spending.. He was right they did.. And it has scared people off from this class.. The "steel block" class is just that steel blocks.. There's NOTHING else different.. Mike Blose has an Alum engine and Charlie Powell is every bit as fast or faster.. My point is.. It goes back to what I was saying about doing your homework.. If your street stock doesn't complete.. Do your homework! Cut and weld and build what you can.. If you know you are gonna run with and upper class swallow your pride and drop back.. If you're in this because of the money... You are sure as heck in it for the wrong reasons...Research what you can on shocks and springs there's tons of info out there for the taking.. I agree the stock classes have gotten out of hand.. But complaining here does nothing.. Talking... TALKING one on one to track officials at least gets your point expressed.. I've already talked with a couple drivers and track officials about having a meeting about our SS class.. Hopefully it happens.. BUT!! again BUT.. It isn't just about street stocks.. It's about all classes.. It is about the economy and the price of things.. Tires are more, gas is more, track admission..
Crates aren't the answer.. Look at the uproar they have created at Lernerville.. BUT they may be part of the solution if implemented correctly.. Not one of us has all the answers.. But it's gonna take give and take on both racers and tracks sides to make it better..

[jo73]

Does anyone remember the days of 6 DIVISION racing at lernerville ? Sprint cars, big block mods, 6 cylinder mods, Late models, semi late models and street stocks. Back in the day, at a much younger age, Gene Pennington told 3 young guys he would build us either a late model or a modified. It was our choice. COST $400.00 The 3 of us thought we where in. We would spend many hours up at gene's garage in harmar. Trying to learn, I had a big block motor, trannies where not what they are today. Another guy had a rock crusher 4 sp. Gene would tell us, your crazy if you use that tranny. 3 speeds are a dime a dozen. We had the money we had the equipment. We planned on racing lernerville, smuckers and motordrome. What pulled the plug ? WE ALL WANTED TO RACE LERNERVILLE !

$400.00 WOW... Today's racers and racetracks can't agree on shit. These crate late models are a joke. The racing is good. THE COST of fielding a competitive car is a shame. Take any top running crate car. The ONLY thing that separates the 2 cars is the motor. They pay the same amount coming in the pit gate as a SLM. yet the purses these guys are running for is ridiculous. The cost of the motors with all the bells and whistles is in the 15,000 range. AND let's Not forget. YOU CAN NOT OPEN THE UP.

Semi-lates. These are the new sportsman class cars. The cost of a new roller is going to set you back 16,000.00 min. crazy yes, but, it's a car you can do many of the driveline components in your own backyard. That alone saves the racer money. Know idiots, want to take that away from the racer. HELLO, you need more guys like that. You clowns want to create less. RESULT. Cost is going to escalate = less cars.

Pure stocks. This was the entry level class for guys to get in. There's cars sitting everywhere that people cannot give away. What killed this glass. Not the sportsman guy's. Your 2 divisions of late models killed these cars.

Sprint cars. There a breed all there own. The cost of a 305 spec motor is ridiculous. Again all these stupid, stupid rules. Again. Remember that pit gate. The purses are a joke.

Modifieds. I wish there was more. Big blocks and 358's. Great concept and it works. That ugly word CRATE is trying to invade and destroy this division also.

Another big item I believe hurting the racing in western pa is nobody has a place to start a career in racing anymore. You used to have The 1/8 and 1/4 mile bullrings. I think you need these raceways for the karts guys, 4 cylinder cars, Micro sprints, the new 3/4 late models and mods. In other parts of the state these tracks are plentiful. Many, many racers get there starts in these types of cars and move on from there. When the micro sprints hit western pa Hickory and challenger both on a Saturday night 1 1/2 hrs. apart would draw 30 plus cars at each track. A lot of those guys moved up and are still racing today.

[race ace]

here should be the first rule in the pure stock class ....#1 if you cant go to advanced auto  or napa or fishers  and buy it it isn't legal.then put them back on a street tire .done!!!!! that is all you need for pure stock rules .if you are working on a street stock no matter who you are and the car is five years old or older right now you are pretty much a track packer  no matter what you do,  just my opinion but seems to be true . the shame is that when Hummingbird had a reasonable set of street stock rules most nights there were 24 cars or more there now they have 8 to 10. now i am not saying to throw this current class out all together  let them run  but maybe try to do something with the current pure stocks and the older street stocks because they were pretty similar except for the tires  how about run a 10 inch tire and make it a hard compound , then pick a  carb   you want to run i really don't know the answer but if the bird has a meeting i hope someone lets me know i know a few guys who are itching to come back if the rules were more  sensible. good racing to all of you .

[interceptor10]

90% of stock cars are a GM metric frame, they haven't been manufactured since 1988,the last 8-10 years saw a boom in junk prices. These a-arms, trailing arms etc. Are gone. stop beating a dead horse. I see heads and egr intakes with loads of machine work done to them for sale high dollar stuff, or you can bolt on an edelbrock dual plane, dart iron eagle heads for hundreds less and go racing. The pure stock car counts between the bird and Thunder Mountain vs counts at dog, marion, and Hesston speaks volumes. The rules debate is over, numbers don't lie.

[race ace]

there are still frames available just go up to Novey's in Clearfield there is a big frame monte carlo a camaro(stock clip) and a metric monte carlo and a el camino sitting in the same row i am sure the frames are for sale maybe not a complete car but i am sure a frame can be bought . you can also purchase a 350 for around 300 dollars now it is probably going to be in need of a rebuild but parts are still available .in  a local salvage yards i know  a guy who has 10 metric cars  sitting in has junkyard plus there are cars already built for sale on the classifieds and on pennswoods classifieds it is not for a lack of cars around it is because nobody listened when things started getting out of hand .i still think if rules were brought in line car counts would be back up.. have a meeting, set  a reasonable set of rules and they  cars will come back . look at lernerville guys complaining about crate engines i personally dont think a crate engine is the answer but maybe some suspension rules like stock trailing arms  would be in there somewhere.racing should be fun where you and the guys you are racing can get together in the pits after the races and crack a beer and have fun .it has now turned into a big business where you  try to out spend the next guy  i had more fun in a 80 dollar enduro car than anyone in a 30 thousand street stock ever had .