39 replies to this topic

[Tyler Beichner]

That all might come to pass, but he's not there, and might never be. Besides, Kinser also won a good number of wingless Sprint/USAC Silver Crown races, showing his versatility. He also won in an era where the cars were somewhat more crude than they are today. I've seen both drive and always felt that Kinser could carry a car if it was off. I'm not saying Schatz isn't talented, I just don't think he's in the same league as Kinser.

Kinser has 269 more WoO wins than Schatz. Let's say, just for fun, that Schatz goes strong until he's 55 years old. That means he has 17 years left and has to average 16 wins a year to surpass him. Not out of the realm of possibility, but a lot would have to go right for this to happen. I'll enjoy the ride, because drivers of this caliber don't come around that often.

[BaconBits]

Schatz is very talented, no doubt, but I don't think he'll break any of Kinser's records. I think he'll he end up a full time late model driver before he even really gets close to Kinser numbers. I have a feeling he's handful of nasty flips away from making the switch.

[Tyler Beichner]

There's no doubt that nasty flips can mess with a driver both physically or mentally. However, Schatz avoids trouble like no other, whether that be luck or skill. He went all of last season without a DNF.

[Tommy]

Schatz is very talented, no doubt, but I don't think he'll break any of Kinser's records. I think he'll he end up a full time late model driver before he even really gets close to Kinser numbers. I have a feeling he's handful of nasty flips away from making the switch.

Schatz has said that the late model wears on him more the sprint car.

[jo73]

Jon, I agree. Boss and wingless sprint cars in general are slower without that wing on top. But, I have witnessed wingless cars go into the corner 9 out of 10 laps backing it in and driving off the cushion to the next corner. Remember, I said 9 out of 10, I've seen these guys go into the corner and they look the same as the first 9. But, they turn into the nastiest beast they can be. Far more have been hurt without that wing above them. I used to go to Eldora to watch the sprint car guys, they got brass ones is all I'm saying. There is no easy wreck at eldora. I've heard guys say. You don't want to crash at eldora. Be it a sprint or a SLM. I doubt if either fairs to we'll wrecking there.

[03Rocket]

If I have to read another straight retarded post by dirt moron 2 I will poor Clorox in my eyes

Edited by 03Rocket, 01 November 2015 - 08:42 PM.

[manny]

no don't do that. i kind of feel bad. he just gets bad information. i been there. ask 10 guys the same question, get 10 different answers. i just just had enough. time to educate myself.

[The Legend]

Good
Thing he's a dirt student and not a dirt teacher.... His
Posts are almost impossible to read....

[dirtstudent2]

Just for thought.  Is there rear steer needed on a sprint to offset the slight relocation of the axle to the right by the Jacobs Ladder?  ... don't know maybe, just askin????  

[dirtstudent2]

And so I have something to think about on the long ride tomorrow.

 

The chassis rocks and rolls both ways and your going to have each bird cage being operated in a different way at different times.  It nets out to they both won't always be working in unison.  With the Jacobs ladder pulling the axle to the right ever so little but never the less moving it to the right, what would be the determining factor to bias the left bird cage and the same for the right.  Then there's how you might alter the working of the bird cages, because of where you set the mounting points for the Jacobs ladder.  It's obvious the mount for the Jacobs Ladder at the right bird cage, changes how the arc intersects and sets the chassis down position, that's easy.  But then there is where you mount the upper and lower chassis points for the Jacobs Ladder and what they do.  That's also pretty obvious if you think about force on a lever.  It's about which end of the lever the operating force exists at and does work for you.  Again that's all easy, what gets complicated is when you throw in different length links on the Jacobs ladder and how it then distorts your nice little arc, that you maybe need for rear steer.

 

It's really easy reading far from impossible, except when I have to read my own words and thoughts, then things get tough. ...

 

I think rear steer on a Late, might just be a whole lot easier then on a sprint.  At least the parts on a Late were designed with rear steer in mind.  In case you missed it, I did indicate rear steer on a sprint if there is a true need for it is opposite of a Late.  I think and maybe?   ...

 

edit:  I read through what I wrote tonight and fixed the few grammar errors my limited writing skills allowed me to find.  It reads very well and easy for me, making total sense.  ...

 

If there's something you don't understand, ask.  I'll do my best to muddy the water more.  If there's something flat out wrong, please point it out explaining as best you can what is wrong and I and everyone else who reads on here can learn from it.  I am as I always have been and hopefully will be able to be until I die, a student of this tough thing called dirt racing.  Being wrong ain't a bad thing if you learn something from it.

Edited by dirtstudent2, 04 November 2015 - 09:15 PM.

[BaconBits]

And so I have something to think about on the long ride tomorrow.
 
The chassis rocks and rolls both ways and your going to have each bird cage being operated in a different way at different times.  It nets out to they both won't always be working in unison.  With the Jacobs ladder pulling the axle to the right ever so little but never the less moving it to the right, what would be the determining factor to bias the left bird cage and the same for the right.  Then there's how you might alter the working of the bird cages, because of where you set the mounting points for the Jacobs ladder.  It's obvious the mount for the Jacobs Ladder at the right bird cage, changes how the arc intersects and sets the chassis down position, that's easy.  But then there is where you mount the upper and lower chassis points for the Jacobs Ladder and what they do.  That's also pretty obvious if you think about force on a lever.  It's about which end of the lever the operating force exists at and does work for you.  Again that's all easy, what gets complicated is when you throw in different length links on the Jacobs ladder and how it then distorts your nice little arc, that you maybe need for rear steer.
 
It's really easy reading far from impossible, except when I have to read my own words and thoughts, then things get tough. ...
 
I think rear steer on a Late, might just be a whole lot easier then on a sprint.  At least the parts on a Late were designed with rear steer in mind.  In case you missed it, I did indicate rear steer on a sprint if there is a true need for it is opposite of a Late.  I think and maybe?   ...

Why are you even trying to compare rear steer in a sprint and a late model? It's obvious that a modern late model (and e-mods, and to a lesser degree, northeastern style mods) have a ton of rear steer built into them, and sprint cars don't. It's apples and oranges.

[jo73]

Sprint car rears are square off the motor plate. If anything, on a sprint car you can run a 16th to a eight in the RF. The rear doesn't have as much travel as in SLM or MODS.

[dirtstudent2]

Sprint car rears are square off the motor plate. If anything, on a sprint car you can run a 16th to a eight in the RF. The rear doesn't have as much travel as in SLM or MODS.

 

In fact the axle is squared off the motor plate and in theory there is no rear steer, assuming the bird cages work in unison.

 

jo73, though your thoughts in theory are correct, do you take into consideration the Jacobs Ladder does not allow the rear end to move straight up and down?  Sure it effectively creates a very long attachment of the axle to the chassis and makes the arc very large.  But never the less, an arc is an arc and does not allow the axle to go straight up and down.

 

does it?????  ...

Edited by dirtstudent2, 04 November 2015 - 10:47 PM.

[manny]

Why are you even trying to compare rear steer in a sprint and a late model? It's obvious that a modern late model (and e-mods, and to a lesser degree, northeastern style mods) have a ton of rear steer built into them, and sprint cars don't. It's apples and oranges.

i agree they have 2 different roll centers. i know very little about how torsion bars, straight axles, or jacobs ladders work but. i can explain 4 link suspension, and how it creates loose roll steer.. it's too hard to figure out what your asking from what you type . dirt guy ,thinking about sending you a pm. you need help.

[The Legend]

Student a latemodel can run as much as 6" of dynamic rear steer. What do you suppose a sprint generates ??? Maybe an 1/8" ?? Or a 1/4" at most ? Then a sprint runs triple the stagger of a latemodel .... And the top wing can generate soo much force to the left when the car is thrown down in there that it actually lifts the right front wheel off the track when a late model has the right front traveling 5" The 2 cars have as much in common as your schmed and a tapirs schmed. This thread is just irrelevant non sensical rambling about nothing.

[jo73]

Student. You can get jacob's ladders in different arm lengths and so on so on. Birdcages are another part that builders have many different view points on. Do I understand. NO.

Jacob's Ladder. Acts same as a Panhard bar. Keeps axle in position from moving left to right. I do believe some builders which build asphalt cars do not run a rear jacob's ladder. Remember on dirt, tire stagger, wing, and in some cases left side frame rail, builders raise the left side so you get better clearance on corner entry.

Radius rods. Mounted to top of birdcage and centered directly over axle
Torsion arms. Again centered directly under axle

Why. Keeps the birdcage level thru full movement. Timing the birdcages.

Some have said this is the reasoning for running a stacked torsion tube in the rear. Equal arm lenghts, SUPPOSEDLY, car drives straighter off corner.

Many have try ed different configurations. They all seem to come back to what's been working for 50yrs.

[dirtstudent2]

Happened across this great thread and there was a lot of comparing Kinser to Schatz.  

 

I think a factor in Kinser being able to set the records he did was what he was given to race.  If what he was given to race was a factor then wouldn't it follow what Schatz is today able to do is at least in part because of what he is given to race?  

 

What is it that might be different about what Schatz is given to race and might be giving him an advantage?  From watching his car on the track and researching pictures and video's of his car on the net, I think the answer to exactly what part of his car is able to perform superior to others is obvious.  

 

How it's being done is less obvious but the resulting superior performance of his car in one area can only happen for one reason.

[coconut]

2 month suspension for bumping your own year old thread

[dirtstudent2]

 

edit:  I bumped it up for three reasons.  

 

The first is because the thread was started on a tough and complex subject because writing it down it helps me organize the process machines called race cars work through when on the track.  

 

Second I'm always interested in hearing what other might have to say about how cars work and how their tires must be use going around an oval track.  

 

The third reason and main reason is it was used as an easy lead into for asking, why is Donny Schatz's car able to get around the track so well.  Yes the obvious is he is a great driver but beyond that what do you see in how his car works on the track that might be giving him a slight advantage?

Edited by dirtstudent2, 28 April 2017 - 12:07 PM.

[jo73]

Donnie keeps his car straighter than most. He drives in off the top to the center of the corner like no other. Watch him if he starts rows back. Usually you will see him on the top early laps and as others are getting bogged down entering the corner he gets up there and wheels around them all.