25 replies to this topic

[dirtstudent2]

Here's a question for ya all.

 

From what I explained doesn't it become obvious the using rear steer in the back by moving the left end of the axle forward not only moves the nose of the car over to the left but in a turn when power is applied it's also hanging weight of the front end out over the banking of the track helping to pin or apply weight to the right front.  The more banking you have to take advantage of the better the nose weight you moved over will help you.  If you see that you'll also see the oddity of how when you have more banking you can get more benefit out loading the right front by not lifting the left front as much letting the left front corner of the car hang down over the banking.  If I'm correct about it wouldn't it lead to less banking raise the left front corner, more let it drop down?  

 

 

I'll stop again to see if I get any input.  So far I'm not tired of doing this and I hope I'm being constructive or provoking new thoughts for some about what it is there actually doing when they set up a staggered solid axle car which only is able to use minimal stagger.  Or I'm totally wrong on all of this?  but maybe not? 

[dirtstudent2]

Without any input it's tougher to want to add to it but it's not like me to ignore thinking about racing stuff because it's tough to think about, so here goes.

 

I have two thoughts to extend the process and both deal with what I'm thinking a driver may need to do to find balance per track conditions and what they've been given to use setup wise on the track.  And I've never driven anything with power enough or enough seat time to know from experience if what I'm thinking is correct.  I can only suspect it might be correct from the progression of what thought about and tried to put down on here.

 

Normally in the past for me balance or a balanced setup was only about being able to apply weight somewhat evenly to the right side tires so they would be evenly able to hold the car in.  Naturally it included every day thoughts of how to have a balanced setup you must not have too much grip present either front or rear.  The normal everyday thought process for most on that is if you have too much grip up front then your going to be loose and if you have too much grip in the back it's going to push. 

 

And naturally my thoughts on both are instead if it's loose then you need more grip in the back and if it pushes you need more grip in the front. I generally never think about resolving a problem by reducing grip.  My other general thought process is you can never have too much grip, you can only have the inability to use what grip you have and pretty much you never ever think about fixing an on track problem by reducing grip and speed.  Only track/tire conditions can reduce your grip and speed per your drivers skill and experience.   

 

Because of what I wrote in this thread I have for me at least a new thinking about loose as it pertains to Lates.  If i'm correct about being able to get true rear steering from the rear by applying acceleration towards the inside of a 'pinned' right front tire then the balance of applied hp per available grip a Late driver needs to use does two things.  One is the same as any other type of car if they spin the back tires, become loose, then the back is going to swing around on them.  The ability of the fronts to steer the car while the driver is causing the back to break loose will remain mostly constant.  But if there is actually rear steer going on per my thoughts about accelerating to the inside of a 'pinned' right front tire, when a driver over uses hp causing the rears which are contributing to steering to spin, will cause a Late to want to go over the edge of grip, cushion or what ever is holding the car in more with both the front and back then other cars. 

 

From that I'm going to say a major difference between lates and maybe stocks >'might'< be a stock would be prone to snap loose earlier then a Late and a Late would be more prone to drift over the edge of grip being more susceptible to a four wheel drift, with any snap loose coming more towards exit.  Yes I don't have a clue if the conclusion and what I wrote in this paragraph is correct.  The difference coming from a Lates ability to 'pin' the right front tire.   All written for my fun of writing about my thoughts and not having a clue and looking for answers.         

 

 

edit:   YES the part about the comparison between Lates and Stocks was a stretch of my imagination.    ... but it would be nice to hear it is a valid comparison??? 

Edited by dirtstudent2, 04 December 2018 - 12:56 PM.

[dirtstudent2]

I'm done, time to move on, can't wait for indoors and the kick off start in Florida. 

[DavyLee2]

They never worked a day in their life
They are strictly Racecars !
Pick a new name Student
How about Prototype?

[dirtstudent2]

They never worked a day in their life
They are strictly Racecars !
Pick a new name Student
How about Prototype?

 

I had stopped writing in this thread DavyLee2 but had to get back into it to thank you for your reply.  i'm also hoping/expecting someone I asked to read it might chime in with a thought or two.  I think my thought process trying to relate Lates with Winged Sprints has as much to do with the return path both mechanically and applied weight takes.  That is because maximum potential for speed in turns though setup and initiated during turn in and entry is maximized for speed through driver control and the application of right side tires.  It's the balance of needed use of the right side tires during the saving momentum phase of a turn which determines how well you can reduce time in turns.  First off the car both Late and Sprint which is able to get the highest use of the right front during turn in, entry and momentum phase will be the car with the highest exit speed and ability to put down hp if it is available.  I may have brought up new thoughts about rear steer and how where the force of acceleration can be directed on a Late to give true rear steering, but I've yet to convince myself it's correct.  If it is correct Late drivers will not get any new feeling for the car when driving but they may start to put new meaning to feeling the track during turns.  And that too I'm not sure of.

 

Up to this point in this post it's been only about the right side tires and thoughts about a basis for how well they can hold a car in during turns.  Naturally I'd expect readers to instantly be thinking I'm leaving out and ignoring the left side tires and the left side of the car, both Late and Winged Sprint.  I'm not and my basic thoughts about both left side tire use and use of the left side of a car are first a throw back to you never can have too much grip and how much use you can get from the left side tires and the left side of the car is dependent on your driver and track conditions and total available grip.

 

Before I can talk about left side tires or the use of the left side of the car I have to make a statement about the use of the left side of the car.  My statement is setup and setting up is real and available grip, speed, available hp and driver skill all need to come together to maximize use of the left side tires and the left side of the car.  I'll give just one example for now which is seen more on Lates then Winged Sprints.  It's a common mistake to adjust in too much use of the left side tires when track grip goes away and it leads to a four wheel drift condition.  There's a point when track grip is going away where instead of adjusting to use left side tires more you need to instead back up and work toward using the right side tires more.  The reason there is a point where you need to reverse setup is the potential maximum on track speed is less and because it's less you will be able to gain function from your right side tires.  If you don't recognize the point where your thoughts about what's needed on the track should change, you'll put your left side tires beyond their grip capability which in turn moves all weight to the right side tires that are already not able to hold the car in.  The result is you've lost grip at all four wheels and now have a four wheel drift problem.  Summing up what I'm presenting here is function wise your use of the left left side tires is to augment needed grip at the right side based on total available grip, speed, available hp and the skill of your driver.

 

What's left in the use of the left side tires and the left side of a staggered solid axle car is how you use the left side to provide a return path for both mechanical and dynamic weight transfer when the car transitions to accelerating. 

 

I was recently presented thoughts about how a particular car is able to apparently get more use then others out of all four tires all around the track.  My reply is to do so the car must maximize the use of the longest path for returning weight during the transition to acceleration.  And for it to do so it also has to minimize the time a front tire is not available for use.  In the case of a Winged Sprint the front tire is the right front tire and I hope in the case of a Late it's the same for the left front tire and I'm still hoping someone who races Lates will respond about if I'm correct on Lates.  The logic of how to mechanically setup for your driver to be able to maximize use of the right front in the case of a Winged Sprint, i'm hoping to brain storm about in February.  I think and I'm pretty certain when setup to do so and with driver understanding of it, both maximum speed in turns and maximum use of available hp will be possible.

 

Again I'm going to stop hoping for input good or bad so long as it's courteous and with the understanding anything I write on here is suspect and likely not to be correct. 

[DavyLee2]

All drivers are different but when the track gets slick .. you need your left rear grip allot more ..or you will be a sitting duck on exit ! when it is tacky .. you need the weight on the right rear so the car will turn ! how that is accomplished on a Prototype or Sprint ... I cant tell you .. i just know who to ask !