58 replies to this topic

[The Legend]

Lol I like how the dude argues a tire rule is ok as long as it allows hammer down go cart type racing lol lol lol. Dude your tires that allow hammer down racing allow inexperienced untalented drivers to go just as fast as everyone else which CAUSES the wrecks !!! If you make the cars harder to drive the fast cars will separate themselves much quicker and have less wrecks

[LM63]

Legend, Whatever....  I agree with a lot of what you say on here  but where you come up with that statement I don't know. I know your a fan of dry slick tracks as am I. Not sure where your hammer down go kart style blah comes from. Crate racing was originally started and designed to keep motor costs under control and that was it. 

 

You can come up with all the dumb ass rules you want but they're never gonna be enforced consistently from track to track. They're not now with the rules we already have.

 

I raced crate lates a lot of years at a track ( DIS in Delaware ) that had a shock rule, fuel rule, chip rule, no rebuild rule etc. There was just more cheating and more fake tech. A lot of guys got sick of it and when Potomac, Winchester, and VMS started running Rush and Fastrak they left even if it meant towing 2 hrs vs 1/2hr. DIS's car count has dropped from a full field to the low teens on most nights now.

 

I just tried to add some input from someone who races a crate and foots the bill by himself. I should have known better.

[The Legend]

I am saying the current crate rules allow the cars to go around without lifting and don't require much in the way of throttle control. If you make the cars harder to drive the drivers will improve and spending 5k for 10 extra HP won't be necessary

[LM63]

That I can agree on.

[brad hibbard]

Legend ---your theory on tire compounds for crates is the exact opposite of what promoters have been thinking

 

stated the way you did ---makes sense

 

undoubtedly tire consumption/sales/profit has a play in compound choice between promoter and manufacturer

 

BUT a portion of the recipe has been about the  car control------with the thoughts being if the tire is too hard and does not "work" well----the end result will be MORE wrecks ---costing the race teams much more money than their tire bill and also slower shows with frustrated fans

 

Legend ---I think you should attend some of these crate based meetings to inject your thoughts----

most of the time when you make a suggestion or introduce your opinion, it comes with a paragraph of insults and negativity-----your opinion on this subject is reasonable and presented properly may get some consideration

 

Brad

 

[Crusty1]

Brad,
If the tire they run now at PMS are to keep wrecks down I would hate to see what
happens with a tire that is going to cause more wrecks!!!!
I still can't figure why they crash so much at PMS the track is big with tons of room.

I totally disagree that the softer compound tire results in less wrecks.
The Legend is right again.

[brad hibbard]

not sure what the answer is there because PMS has always had a unique racing situation because of its size and speed----its not really comparable to the average 3/8 mile racetrack.

 

what fixes racing issues at shorter tracks may not work at PMS

 

just my thoughts

[MileyTHEmonsterFAN]

Brad,
If the tire they run now at PMS are to keep wrecks down I would hate to see what
happens with a tire that is going to cause more wrecks!!!!
I still can't figure why they crash so much at PMS the track is big with tons of room.

I totally disagree that the softer compound tire results in less wrecks.
The Legend is right again.

 

It goes back to what Jon said that unfortunately, the usually wide open style at PPMS allows drivers who have no car control to just put the hammer down and keep up with the pack and usually bounce of everything in the way. The times we were there this year, I seen the F1, 01, 03, 27J acting like human pinballs bouncing off cars all night long. Sometimes the car might be faster then the guys who are driving it.

[The Legend]

That's the reason there . When everyone is running wide open you can't afford to lift or 5 cars pass you, so guys get in a position where they should lift but they know their screwed if they do so they let her eat all the way into the back straight pits . The cars being TOO hooked up and TOO dependent on momentum and TOO under powered for the tires and suspension they have are the reason the crates have sooo many red flag type incidents . If they made the cars handle in such a way that it was physically impossible to run around there on the mat you would have LESS major crashes because guys would know they can be patient and DRIVE their way to the front instead of PLOWING their way to the front .

[Rocky Kugel]

Thats why I got out....cant afford $50, 000 crate car..the shock cost is out of hand...a dall the llightweight parts...crazy

[Paul55]

 
It goes back to what Jon said that unfortunately, the usually wide open style at PPMS allows drivers who have no car control to just put the hammer down and keep up with the pack and usually bounce of everything in the way. The times we were there this year, I seen the F1, 01, 03, 27J acting like human pinballs bouncing off cars all night long. Sometimes the car might be faster then the guys who are driving it.

yup u lift u lose or get ran over lol! Tracks just to wide open. I agree with Jon harder tires and shocks are ridiculous cost!

[LM63]

Not trying to be a dick here but yall say the shock costs are out of control. I'm all for saving money but what is the big expense after you've bought a set. Especially after buying them used like I did. Getting them freshened isn't too much. Just asking.

[The Legend]

Lm63 everyone who makes that argument really thinks that a double adjustable shock is like having every shock in . With the old school Afco twin tube junk that may have been the case. On an adjustable shock when you turn the adjuster it only controls the amount of oil that by passes the shim stack and runs through the bleed circuit . On many shocks turning that knob does basically jack shit especially if the shock has a piston with built in bleed circuits . If a shock has zero bleed in the piston you can see a significant dyno change but even then it's only between zero and 1" per second . The sh

[The Legend]

I just wrote a fuking book on this board and erased it before i posted it and I don't have the patients right now ... I'll
Explain tomorrow .

[Crusty1]

Not trying to be a dick here but yall say the shock costs are out of control. I'm all for saving money but what is the big expense after you've bought a set. Especially after buying them used like I did. Getting them freshened isn't too much. Just asking.

After you BOUGHT a set the expense would go away!
Are you kidding me! WTF

[michael myers]

forget the cost of shock's for a moment. A basic shock will help slow down the drivers that run out of talent at the flagstand. If the car will not handle the track conditions one of two thing's will happen 1. they will slow down,or 2. they will wad their car up and hopefully not take anybody with them. these high dollar, multi-adjustable shock's enable undertalented driver's to run w.f.o. like a bull dozer. Mandate hard tires, basic shocks. Make the cars drive on the edge, rather than drive like on train tracks. If they do not understand throttle control at that point then they will most likely run out of money from fixing their junked equipment.

[LM63]

After you BOUGHT a set the expense would go away!
Are you kidding me! WTF

I understand the costs of rebuilds and that there are many variations in types and builds of shocks. I guess you could spend till your broke if your that stupid.

I will say if shocks were the answer DIS would be a model track but the years I raced there with there crappy Pro 95's and 75's it was far from that. Everyweek there are multi car wrecks and somehow the people kept coming back to do it again the following week.

My opinion on the wrecking which I will say we don't have down here for the most part is just flat out lack of respect for fellow drivers. Kids and a lot of adults too that have been taught or have the opinion it's ok to run over people to get a position. Some of them I think are very talented they just don't give a crap.

I'll just let it go cause I can agree costs are high. I just don't think throwing a lot of this stuff at it is gonna fix much of anything. I'm getting old so I'm out of it in a few years anyway. Never thought I'd say it but I'm starting to look forward to that more and more.

[bigracer25k]

This is what happened when you change the rules just to make certain people happy. I have said before it would not save anyone money. But I had no clue what I was talking about.I am happy that they got rid of the over paid want to be racecars. They only had 2 or 3 races that was worth seeing. The rest put me to sleep. Racing is for the ones that build something and to see if what they can do can beat what someone else can build.

[dirtstudent2]

dumb out of place post deleted

Edited by dirtstudent2, 16 November 2014 - 01:27 PM.

[fastrakpr]

Let me share some thoughts that have come along the way. Not saying its right or wrong, but just some specific details of how we got here. Being the person that started crate racing I think we are qualified to give our opinion.

Not sure if anyone remembers, but we started on the old old GY 400's. They were hard, hard and you couldn't race. Crate racing was a demo derby in most cases. There was ZERO side bite so there was no racing side by side. You didnt dare stick it under someone because you know good and well it wasn't going to stick. Results, destroyed cars. YEs we did put in a soft tire for that reason. If a promoter and/or series is using a soft tire to pad thier pocket, then quit racing there.I personally told the people at the meeting Sunday to not use new tires to race on. Hot lap or qualify on them then put the old ones on. I'm sure you disagree but old 200's are faster than new 200's. Someone at some point suggestedd 400RR mandatory. Really not a bad idea and it would save some tire cost. I am strongly considering doing that.

Shocks. Hell who knows anymore? From what I have seen most any cannister shock can be purchased for $450. Now the rebuulders (most of them) have become the issue. I know of rebuilders charging $1000 for rebuilds. If a shock has 77 adjustments from the factory, exactly what is it that they can do to justify $1000?

Blue printing crate engines. You can't convince people it doesn't help period, but they go spend that $3000 anyway. Quit doing that stuff that is worthless and go buy shocks or do something for your kids maybe but for goodness sakes quit throwing good money after bad. I know that I know that I know this is b/s. Dynoed hundreds of engines so I am going on facts not what I heard.

Racing rumeors. This hurts racing. If you don;t know things to be factual, but you want to prresent them as being factual, you have just become part of the problem, not the solution.

Perception versus reality. Perception has become a cruch for most people. It excuses not working your ass off at night, learing something and applying you learn to the track. Shocks have become a "perceptial problem" versus a "realistic problem" or at least in the way of results. Max Blair didn't have them in the NE and David Smith didn't have them in the SE. They both won thier championships a few times. So if they didn't have them and won, is the problem real or is it perception?

In a lot of cases racers think they can buy their way to the front. When you have the same tires, the same engines money will only take you just so far. Talent does come into play at some point. We never sold the program as being easy, or at least I didn't, it was sold as controlling the cost of tires and engines. Thats all it was sold as and it weas working great until so many seires started popping up. Then the cost of the tires came back once again. You allowed that to happen.

The attutude of racers hahve changed so dramatically its unreal. Not everyone now, but so many people think we owe you something. I was so poor broke when I stated racing I got lapped in 3 laps. I didn't whine about what someone else had, I went to work. I didn't have the money regardless so no need in crying about it. It was going to change anything. I would work harder. Out work you. I did get lapped at my first race in 3 laps, but the last race of that same season I won. I earned it. THATS CALLED RACING.

Too many series are destroying this class. I hate to see it as I have personally spent a lot of money and given 12 years of my life to this class, but everytime something new comes along teams are quick to jump. Now there is FASTRAK, RUSH, and they are now doing a AR series. What is there 100 cars in the area? So everyone has 30 cars. WOW. The tracks didn't have to allow it but they did. The teams didn't have to all it, but you did. You took a proven product that hasd history to back it up and walked away. You believed rumours versus simply picking up the phone and getting facts. That is the problem. Then you took away the influence you had because you lost your numbers. WE, you and I are nobody in the big picture. We aren;t WOO and you aren't Scott Bloomquist but we had numbers and thats what gave us, grass roots teams and series, por power, Manufacturers want numbers and we could provide larger dollars back to you when we had larger numbers. Thats going down everyday and so are your point funds along with it. Who fault is that? Lose your numbers and you lose your strength. Thats not rocket science.

Sorry but thats the truth. At one time we were united and now we are not. Someone chose to start something new and some of you walked away equals a decrease in numbers. Now another and more of you will walk away and what will happen. Another decrease in nunbers. The result, point funds go down once again. Then we can't change what we have learned and try to help you. People tell you lies and b/s and some people actualyl believe it. It amazes me the amount of people in racing that are so smart, but can't count. Or it is they don't take the time too?

Yes crate racing is going down hill quick and its up to the teams to do something about it. At one time we had over 600 teams in FASTRAK, now we have what 200? Please think about what the truth is. If you don't, you will have to leace your car sitting at home or sell it because then, there really will be nothing but $20,00 crate motors so either way your car will be gone.

Thanks for letting me rant.

Stan