96 replies to this topic

[sicario]

Id mostly have to agree here.  I HATE that there is basically 3 divisions of the exact same car(E-Mods).  It drives me nuts.  There is no reason for it.  By having 9000 different classes, it thins out the driver pool.  Im not entirely sure I agree with someone moving up from Minis to Crates(Proper, Troyer) as a lateral shift, but so be it.  The 305's killed themselves, by having 3 different sets of rules and having to change everything under the sun to run the other class.  It was never EVER going to work, and it didnt.  Went to Attica for the first time Friday night.  THey have it figured out.  Just wish these tracks around here would do the same, and get the same rules for the same classes instead of tweaking what they see fit.  It does nothing but hurt them.

I agree. They have it figured out at that cluster of tracks in Ohio and in central PA. In central there are 3 classes region wide, couple subdividions within the sprints and late models then stocks. They pay headline divisions like headliners and they don't pay for touring support series money like we do for the rush touring series and uems. What did you think of Attica?

That was my main grip with the pro mods which are totally unecessary IMO. Emods are a solid class and economods have been very successful at their three tracks over the last 3-5 years. At least pro mods are northern based for now but I could do without those and the crate stocks. But those three economod tracks still can't agree on tire regulations. One says run 100's on the RR the other two say straight mediums. I do think the rush sprints were a very solid idea though. I'm a little surprised there haven't been any other tracks to pick up rush mods weekly.

[23wellerfan31]

I agree. They have it figured out at that cluster of tracks in Ohio and in central PA. In central there are 3 classes region wide, couple subdividions within the sprints and late models then stocks. They pay headline divisions like headliners and they don't pay for touring support series money like we do for the rush touring series and uems. What did you think of Attica?

That was my main grip with the pro mods which are totally unecessary IMO. Emods are a solid class and economods have been very successful at their three tracks over the last 3-5 years. At least pro mods are northern based for now but I could do without those and the crate stocks. But those three economod tracks still can't agree on tire regulations. One says run 100's on the RR the other two say straight mediums. I do think the rush sprints were a very solid idea though. I'm a little surprised there haven't been any other tracks to pick up rush mods weekly.

I honesty liked Attica.  I dont like the immediate single file restarts for the Lates, but it was a good show regardless.  Pretty cool little race track in the middle of nowhere.  Including the random STATE cop, sitting on a country backroad, in the middle of a damn intersection, doing nothing.  Little stupid, but it is what it is.  Got to get their money somehow I guess.  The sprints I believe needed to happen.  The micros have all but faded out around here, and that used to be the stepping stone.  The 305's could never take off around here for whatever reason, probably because of the different rules.  I just dont get, what is so damn hard about tracks just agreeing on rules.  For instance, Stateline, FINALLY, went with the Penn/Ohio rules on street stocks.  Which basically gives them the same set of rules for all the tracks around here, other then the ridiculous crate stocks at Lernerville.  I just dont see why tracks feel the need to do this.  What needs to happen, is someone put together some kind of meeting at the very beginning of the off-season with ALL of the tracks around here(Sharon, Eriez, Stateline, Bradford, PPMS, ETC) and come up with a central rules for everyone.  My as well not count Lernerville, because they are going to do their own thing regardless.  I have my thoughts on the stupid UMP tiire crap in the lates there, but the car counts speak for themselves with how well thats working,  

[sicario]

Cool, I've always heard good things about that place. I agree, there needs to be some semblance and balance between the tracks but that would mean someone would have to conform with another tracks ideas and i just can't see the egos being out aside and getting in line with someone else who's done it better. We can hope

Edited by sicario, 17 April 2018 - 10:40 AM.

[23wellerfan31]

Cool, I've always heard good things about that place. I agree, there needs to be some semblance and balance between the tracks but that would mean someone would have to conform with another tracks ideas and i just can't see the egos being out aside and getting in line with someone else who's done it better. We can hope

I'd strongly recommend going if you've never been there.  44 410's, roughly 33 UMP Lates and around 22 305's.  Pretty good racing, and a good all around facility.

[FanJim24]

Maybe we need another PRA to force consistency. Some of the PRA's rules were silly even then, but you could run 4 tracks a week and be legal at all of them. 

[tonyp]

That's a blanket statement about Crates Yes crates or crates no .. that's not accurate
 Crates have been an option at tracks and have proven to be equalized in certain conditions with weight ... So when a sanctioning body says " Buy ours or don't come here "  .. That's bullshit ! Its an obvious forced secondary market by the people who make all the money selling Monopoly motors to the upper divisions for the sake of making the money and providing their buyer with a place to sell their used stuff and make a buck freshening them up ( MONPOLY MOTOR) .. not cheaper racing for all .. and so it will not slip by on a racing forum ..
your right .. some people flat out wont buy one and will walk away with a bad taste ..
Latemodel motors are way over most people head and the " Crate" latemodel makes sense  .. but not in stock cars that guys use parts from every other division to go race !
Tech is the equalizer in every track / sanctioning body rules ! If you have Tech .. then Every track and series is fair and balanced
 People believe those bolts take the place of tech .. and so to them its true .. But a scale is just as effective ! The protest rule is the same with fancy wire seal bolts or a guys word that he has a 350 and not a 427!
as stated above
true" Cost containment" stringent technical rules surrounded by stringent tech
 You can apply that anywhere to any rules package and have the desired " cost containment"  results

You're exactly right, those bolts don't take the place of a good tech inspector and if tracks had enforced rules that were in place years ago crates wouldn't have taken hold like they did. In general I don't really like crates, that's not to say I haven't seen good crate races because I have but in my opinion, a well defined and ENFORCED set of rules keeps costs manageable and produces better racing than mandating that everyone have the same motor in the interest of fairness.

[dirtstudent2]

Without saying one thing about necessity rules and demands on racers do three things.

 

They Increase cost, opportunity and ingenuity.

 

 

Any rule provides opportunity for racers to use their ingenuity to excel at a cost.  

[DavyLee2]

I believe the Rush rules say no Fastrack crates approved
Same motor but different bolts ?
Or same bolts different motor ?

[94.3-RADRACER]

and tonyp, what major sanction with open anything does anything to cut cost..........lol.......none......

[dirtstudent2]

deleted

Edited by dirtstudent2, 18 April 2018 - 07:27 PM.

[sicario]

Do any major open motor sanctions claim to cut costs?

[94.3-RADRACER]

don't know.......just trying to see where tonyp is going with his post.  saying rules and cutting cost is better......who is cutting cost with open motors?

[jo73]

In many other parts of the country you have race tracks that have 1 featured division. Western Pa and eastern ohio is a area that has 3 top divisions that when it comes time to purse structure, has to get 2 or 3 ways. Lernerville's draw has always been you get the most bang for the buck if you go on Friday night. Most of you think I hate crates. I do not, repeatedly I have said the late models put on a good show.

It was mentioned the 305 sprint cars are dead. Sooooo, let's start another class of sprint Car !! Someone, Anyone. Tell me how that scenario is working out ? How many motors do these entry level, low buck teams need to buy every year.

The more rules the more the cost is.

[DavyLee2]

don't know.......just trying to see where tonyp is going with his post.  saying rules and cutting cost is better......who is cutting cost with open motors?

Every single track has pages of specific rules for each class ! Change them every year too
They list rules for every part of the car
What Tony is agreeing with is that
If you simply teched cars then hypothetically the playing field would be even
You can purchase a Crate motor with several upgrades that are “Legal”
So pay more money and you get a lighter Crank better springs etc
Is that not true 94 .3
So I have 6500 and you Have 7000 and you get an advantage that’s legal in crate racing ?
The point is that if tech enforced the rules at any given track in any given class
Then it’s effectively a Crate class
A Crate of rules that everyone abides by
And THAT is what racing is .. and racing is NOT the go karts at Disney world but it’s a patch

[FanJim24]

There are guys out there who can build their own motors for less money than a crate motor. I don't know how many, but they are out there, at least at the stockish level. 

[sicario]

The number of classes region wide is an issue as is the amount of "headliner" divisions. Regardless of what that headliner is, every class needs a feeder. At the grove, in the real racing parts of ohio, and knoxville they have at least two types of sprints such as 305's, 360's etc. A lot of drivers start in the lower tier and work their way to 410's. If not for financial reasons then to learn to actually race before strapping into a 410.

This is kind of what's going here as well, at least conceptually and on paper but it never really translates. You need natural progression whether it's from Class to class like Lux for example or within the levels of one class like crates/limiteds to supers.

However, we DO NOT need a budget class for every division because anything below a big block is supposed to be a budget or starter class....... owning a car is a process. Whether it's budgeting and learning how to manage the team and not go broke, getting in with sponsors and suppliers, attracting bigger more lucrative sponsors, and just finding what works for your team.

Some guys never move past stocks and that's okay but there is zero reason for a $15,000+ motor for a stock and the answer to those concerns isn't just CRATES! It's a lot deeper than that. It goes further than just motor costs and let's start a budget class or only run crates! Maybe reform some of the existing classes first to be more cost effective. Guys will buy in or they won't but it's def more palpable when you take things away over a period of time than all at once. Gotta crawl before you walk and walk before you run

Edited by sicario, 18 April 2018 - 11:01 PM.

[tonyp]

don't know.......just trying to see where tonyp is going with his post.  saying rules and cutting cost is better......who is cutting cost with open motors?

Like Davey said, I'm saying if tracks had adequate tech and stuck to their rules costs wouldn't have spiraled out of control in the first place. When you take away the ability for people to use their ingenuity competition suffers. And just because "open" motors/rules allow guys to do their own thing doesn't automatically make them more expensive, it again comes down to enforcing established rules. You can have an open motor class that says no titanium rods or pistons etc but still allow guys to pick their own cam and maybe you pick a better setup than your competition for a given track so you have an advantage. It didn't cost you any more than the next guy since you both are prohibited from using insanely expensive space age materials but you were allowed to use your head and do your own research on parts that every motor uses and that's how you gain an advantage. In my opinion that's what racing should be.

[Paul55]

Rush must really bad cause we had 51 cars racing last night lmao! Keep hating

[blue by you]

The number of classes region wide is an issue as is the amount of "headliner" divisions. Regardless of what that headliner is, every class needs a feeder. At the grove, in the real racing parts of ohio, and knoxville they have at least two types of sprints such as 305's, 360's etc. A lot of drivers start in the lower tier and work their way to 410's. If not for financial reasons then to learn to actually race before strapping into a 410.

This is kind of what's going here as well, at least conceptually and on paper but it never really translates. You need natural progression whether it's from Class to class like Lux for example or within the levels of one class like crates/limiteds to supers.

However, we DO NOT need a budget class for every division because anything below a big block is supposed to be a budget or starter class....... owning a car is a process. Whether it's budgeting and learning how to manage the team and not go broke, getting in with sponsors and suppliers, attracting bigger more lucrative sponsors, and just finding what works for your team.

Some guys never move past stocks and that's okay but there is zero reason for a $15,000+ motor for a stock and the answer to those concerns isn't just CRATES! It's a lot deeper than that. It goes further than just motor costs and let's start a budget class or only run crates! Maybe reform some of the existing classes first to be more cost effective. Guys will buy in or they won't but it's def more palpable when you take things away over a period of time than all at once. Gotta crawl before you walk and walk before you run

who in stocks is running a 15000 + motor .

[sicario]

Anybody that runs up front. Whitling, buckley, rusty moore's motor is in that price range, Bisch, clark. Gordon got a bigger motor this year and i'd figure no expense was spared