Ppms is bigger than a half mile
Sweeney RUSH Series announces pilot Pro Stock "Weekly" program for GM 602 & 604s
Started by RUSH Racing Series, Jan 26 2015 07:30 PM
68 replies to this topic
#41
Posted 29 January 2015 - 12:14 PM
#42
Posted 29 January 2015 - 12:24 PM
Track size isn't the only thing to take into consideration. The configuration, banking, surface,etc have to be factored in.
#43
Posted 29 January 2015 - 12:36 PM
This is Jason, not Jim. To address your point: people will cheat anyway they can...even with the current rules for the open engines. I'm sure people are building the open stuff with unapproved parts (even more so than attempting to cheat with a 604). How are we teching the open engines? Pumping them is not the proper way either. But we're not arguing that point currently. Cheating is going to happen no matter what program is in place. I'm just pointing out that if you want to run a 604 in the stocks, it's a cheaper alternative and not worth the time or effort to "cheat it up". There isn't enough to gain from going that route.
If I'm wrong correct me, but with engine setback option, were'nt the 358's and 406's required to bolt on extra weight in front of the motors, while the Crate engines were not? Plus, the "open" motors were required to weigh 100# more, again, unless that has all changed? There is that plus the fact that the 604's have aluminum heads, right? With illegal tinkering without changing the displacement those 604's with those weight breaks have an overwhelming advantage.
None of this is to suggest that teams aren't cheating "open" motors; I'm sure some are. They don't have the luxury of cheating regarding weight and where it's placed in the car though, as those things are easy for tech people to check.
I also have nothing against against Chris Schneider. He's a great driver and an accomplished builder. What I don't and have never liked is the fact that he has input on Lernerville's DirtCar Sportsman's class. It's a conflict of interest.
- whiteboy55 and Rusty_Nuts like this
#44
Posted 29 January 2015 - 01:54 PM
358's and 604's have to weigh 2900 lbs. 406's have to weigh 3100 lbs. There's always been a 200 lb difference between the 358's and 406's.If I'm wrong correct me, but with engine setback option, were'nt the 358's and 406's required to bolt on extra weight in front of the motors, while the Crate engines were not? Plus, the "open" motors were required to weigh 100# more, again, unless that has all changed? There is that plus the fact that the 604's have aluminum heads, right? With illegal tinkering without changing the displacement those 604's with those weight breaks have an overwhelming advantage.
None of this is to suggest that teams aren't cheating "open" motors; I'm sure some are. They don't have the luxury of cheating regarding weight and where it's placed in the car though, as those things are easy for tech people to check.
I also have nothing against against Chris Schneider. He's a great driver and an accomplished builder. What I don't and have never liked is the fact that he has input on Lernerville's DirtCar Sportsman's class. It's a conflict of interest.
If (and not all cars are doing this) you have your engine set back and you have the 358 or 406, you have to add 50 lbs in front of the bell housing. And as you point out, the 604's do not have to add this weight plus they do have the aluminum heads. That's about a 100 lb swing, if you use the engine setback at its max. From our experience, 100 lbs of weight moved from front to back will change your percentage about 1-2 percent total more rear weight. In the grand scheme of things, with these heavy cars, I don't consider that a huge advantage. We've played with rear percentage in stocks car, for years, with a range of 50.5 % to 54 % and the best car I ever had was just around 51 %. We've always run these cars a little bit heavier (total weight) than the minimum and found that they work better that way.
Ok, onto the "cheated up" 604's. The best HP numbers that you can get from a non cheated 604 are somewhere in the 425-450 range, max. And the torque range has to be similar numbers of 400-450 ft. lbs. I haven't seen the numbers for a "cheated up" 604 but I'd say a safe guess would be possibly 500 HP and similar ft. lbs. of torque. (and I think I'm being generous)? A good 358 (I'm using this as an example because of the weight limit being the same) can make well over 500 HP and again a significantly more ft. lbs. of torque.
Taking all of that into consideration, my conclusion, again, is that the money, time and effort it would take to "cheat up" a 604 isn't worth it...due to the fact that the minimal rear percentage that can be gained versus the maximum horsepower that can be gained will not be a significant advantage to try to cheat with the current rules that are in place.
*None of this is opinion being presented as fact. We've been involved with stock cars for 15 plus years. I also have run crate engines in a couple different type cars. I'm just trying to present what I have gained through all our experiences to help with this discussion*
Edited by Jmfosnaught, 29 January 2015 - 01:59 PM.
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.
"The Man In The Arena", Theodore Roosevelt, April 23, 1910
#45
Posted 29 January 2015 - 02:45 PM
Unlike my brother, I don't agree with 604's being ran in a stock car. Aluminum heads never have and never should be on an engine ran in a stock car. Also, the reason that they originally introduced the crate engines into the stock division at Lernerville was to be more cost effective for the drivers. A new 604 is $5500 and with bolt one you have another $2000+ dollars. Also guys are spending more money on shock packages and other components to help with the handling of these cars. Now more money is being put up for a points fund for cars running a crate engine and they can still race all the big races and be competitive. I think crate engine cars had 6 or 7 wins at Lernerville last year. So they have a chance to receive the weekly purse plus extra at the end of the year in a separate point fund depending on how well they run and now they'll have a crate engine only race at the autumn motive fest plus will be able to compete with the "open" engines in the $2000 to win race. I personally don't like it and don't agree with running the 604 in a stock car. Just one driver's opinion.
"a man with momentum and nothing to lose is a dangerous person" - Jason Fosnaught
#46
Posted 29 January 2015 - 04:20 PM
Unlike my brother, I don't agree with 604's being ran in a stock car. Aluminum heads never have and never should be on an engine ran in a stock car. Also, the reason that they originally introduced the crate engines into the stock division at Lernerville was to be more cost effective for the drivers. A new 604 is $5500 and with bolt one you have another $2000+ dollars. Also guys are spending more money on shock packages and other components to help with the handling of these cars. Now more money is being put up for a points fund for cars running a crate engine and they can still race all the big races and be competitive. I think crate engine cars had 6 or 7 wins at Lernerville last year. So they have a chance to receive the weekly purse plus extra at the end of the year in a separate point fund depending on how well they run and now they'll have a crate engine only race at the autumn motive fest plus will be able to compete with the "open" engines in the $2000 to win race. I personally don't like it and don't agree with running the 604 in a stock car. Just one driver's opinion.
We do disagree about the use of the crates in stock cars but my views posted above are in regards to there being no reason to cheat with a 604. And that's really the point I'm attempting to present facts about.
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.
"The Man In The Arena", Theodore Roosevelt, April 23, 1910
#47
Posted 29 January 2015 - 08:24 PM
Ppms is bigger than a half mile
Depends on where you measure it. If I remember it correctly, PPMS is a half mile when measured in the very middle of the track, which would make it like a 6/10 or 5/8 at the fence because it's so wide. Eldora doesn't even measure a half at the wall, it's something like 200 feet short.
But, like I said, you can't really compare them. Eldora is light years ahead of PPMS. It's really light years ahead of everybody, except for Knoxville. That place is awesome too.
Follow me on Twitter: @JoshBayko
#48
Posted 29 January 2015 - 09:39 PM
I think ppms is a half mile measured twenty feet off the inside guard rail.
#49
Posted 29 January 2015 - 11:13 PM
Via Google Earth....
PPMS on the wall = .55 miles
Eldora on the wall = .48 miles
#50
Posted 30 January 2015 - 12:37 PM
I follow what you're saying, Jason, but my position is that there is just too much room for in the rule book for unique interpretations. And to be honest, I am suspicious how hard some tracks (Lernerville, for example), are pushing the Crate agenda. It tells me that people other than racers are getting their pockets greased, and that's a slippery slope to go down, no pun intended.
Leave the the Crates to Rush/Fastrak. If teams want to use them with a 604, then they have to use cast heads without a weight break. If it comes to pass that enough teams want to use them, then I'm sure some tracks will be open to an all Crate Stock class like Emig tried a few seasons ago at MRP.
Leave the the Crates to Rush/Fastrak. If teams want to use them with a 604, then they have to use cast heads without a weight break. If it comes to pass that enough teams want to use them, then I'm sure some tracks will be open to an all Crate Stock class like Emig tried a few seasons ago at MRP.
#51
Posted 30 January 2015 - 02:17 PM
I follow what you're saying, Jason, but my position is that there is just too much room for in the rule book for unique interpretations. And to be honest, I am suspicious how hard some tracks (Lernerville, for example), are pushing the Crate agenda. It tells me that people other than racers are getting their pockets greased, and that's a slippery slope to go down, no pun intended.
Leave the the Crates to Rush/Fastrak. If teams want to use them with a 604, then they have to use cast heads without a weight break. If it comes to pass that enough teams want to use them, then I'm sure some tracks will be open to an all Crate Stock class like Emig tried a few seasons ago at MRP.
And we all saw how well that class took off.
Edited by Foz20J, 30 January 2015 - 02:18 PM.
"a man with momentum and nothing to lose is a dangerous person" - Jason Fosnaught
#52
Posted 30 January 2015 - 04:15 PM
What I read in this release is that this points system is for 602 motors. Read it again. Misprint ? Or did I miss something ?
#53
Posted 30 January 2015 - 04:35 PM
What I read in this release is that this points system is for 602 motors. Read it again. Misprint ? Or did I miss something ?
With a new racing season now on the horizon, Series Directors Vicki Emig and Mike Leone are excited to announce the development of a Sweeney Chevrolet Buick GMC Pro Stock "Weekly" Series Championship program for GM crate 602 and 604 drivers set to begin in 2015. The program is being established as a pilot program for continued development and opportunities for participating RUSH speedways that permit the GM 602 and GM 604 crate engine package to compete in their current pro stock division.
Stacie White
#54
Posted 30 January 2015 - 04:44 PM
Yes. But keep reading below that at the list of tracks and the motor they will be accumulated points on. They all say 602 ! Which the last time I checked it has steel head's and is not as costly as the 604. So, if you finish say 10th do you get max points over all others ? That is where my comment of misprint comes from.
#55
Posted 30 January 2015 - 09:48 PM
According to press release, the only eligible 602 tracks are: Brighton, Freedom, Humberstone and Sharon, is how I am reading it...
Bone29
#56
Posted 30 January 2015 - 10:34 PM
Legend Pittsburgh Motor Speedway probably is bigger than a half mile just like the old Clearfield and Expo were listed as a half mile but were closer to five eighths mile. My cousin was an official at a dirt track and said they tried to measure on the inside for insurance purposes , the bigger the track , the bigger the risk and more insurance , don't know if that is still true or not.
#57
Posted 30 January 2015 - 11:00 PM
Brad if all these crappy running crates had illegal cams in them where did the seals come from?
#58
Posted 30 January 2015 - 11:04 PM
ebay and racin junk
#59
Posted 30 January 2015 - 11:14 PM
If I remember the rumors correctly, Brad was asked to tech one of those "sealed" crate stocks at Lernerville a couple years ago and the driver wouldn't allow it. So without the proper tech inspections, people will continue to cheat up those engines and take advantage to all the allowed perks of a true "crate".
#60
Posted 31 January 2015 - 08:09 AM
If only we could get rid of the crates so we can get back to racing the way it used to be, before people cheated.
^^^^thats sarcasm (for the slow people)
^^^^thats sarcasm (for the slow people)
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