102 replies to this topic

[The Legend]

Race tracks are just like gas stations, fast food joints, motels and a lot of other businesses!! They get overbuilt and then no one makes the profit
they used to. Then the weaker ones begin to close!! Such is just a fact of most any business in this world, and I doubt it will ever change!! Here
in Butler they are building three new hotels/motels. And that is in addition to four national chain motels already here. No way they are ever going
to fill them up on a regular basis in a town the size of Butler! Some will end up closing!!


Walt

That's just it ... There simply aren't any cars , there's only room for so many tracks because there's only so many cars

[babyjesusracing]

what is the payout going to be for the alternating classes

[The Legend]

what is the payout going to be for the alternating classes

1 free boiled hot dog and a 5 minute or until you finish yoke smoking from
Sun hunny

[Skull]

The legend is right, I have been around racing for more years then I would like to remember and more money has been proven NOT to work.

The "pay more money" and "they will come" theory just does not work.

I have my ideas on increasing the fan base at tracks, but increasing car counts kind of has me puzzled, but I am sure the saturation of too many race tracks might have something to do with it.

I can remember the late 60's, 70's etc. how great the car counts were and how packed the stands were for weekly racing. There were just not that many race tracks competing for cars and fans.

Then along came the "Special".

I can remember the old Schmuckers [ Latrobe ] speedway that started to have Wednesday nite specials for Late Models pay $ 1,000 to win. Car counts were very good and same for the fans.

Then it just seemed to start escalating from there.

The thought of building a race track entered into a lot of minds for a sure fire way to get rich. Eventually every county had a race track or two.

It is just common sense.. The more tracks, the less cars and less people to go around. Until the number of race tracks dwindle, car counts and fans will not pick up.

That is the reason I never feel bad when a race track closes. I'm selfish... I want to go back to the old days of huge car counts, trying to find a seat in the stands, packed parking lots and that is never going to happen until there are fewer race tracks.

Again this is just my honest opinion and always welcome criticism or alternatives to my honest opinions.

You are partially correct. In addition to the existence of too many tracks in the western part of Pa., there are way too many disparate divisions. Back in the 70's, you had a Claimer division, (today's Strictly Stocks), Semi-Lates (today's 358 LM's), LM's (today's Supers, obviously), Sprints and Modifieds/Coupes. There was a Six-Cylinder division at Mercer, and a Mini-Stock/4-Cylinder class at one time or another at both Mercer and Pittsburgh. That was about it for divisions, off the top of my head. Now we have all of this crap, including Crate everything they can put a Crate motor in, and there isn't enough sponsorship money or fan interest to service all of these classes and tracks. Divisions, mostly support classes, need to be eliminated along with some tracks before we ever see full weekly fields on a consistent basis again.

Look out east. Yes, there are a couple of tracks that run five classes, but most are four or less. Williams Grove runs 410 and 358 Sprints on Fridays, 358 LM's, Super Sportsman Sprints and Street Stocks on Saturdays. In addition to the beautiful 4/10 clay of Susquehanna, they have a small oval called The Outback Track that they use for Kart and Micro racing. In the eastern part of the state, there are fewer "big car" tracks. There are many 1/5 mile and under tracks for Karting, Legends/Mod-Lite, 4-Cylinder and and Micro Sprint shows. In other words, not many support classes that too many drivers make a career of racing in, unlike around here. Consider also that the economy isn't any different out there than it is here, so it can't be used as a valid excuse, in comparison.

From Clinton County Speedway west to the Ohio line, from the W.V./Maryland border to NY in the north, I count 15 dirt tracks a 1/4 mile or larger featuring classes bigger than 4-Cylinders. In other words, no Blanket Hills or Karting tracks. The list does include two tracks, the former Tri-City and DHS which may or may not reopen. The list also does not include, TVR, Allegheny Mountain Speedway, Latrobe, Challenger, TMR or Hesston. No asphalt, either, i.e.; Lake Erie, Motordrome, CNB Bank or Jennerstown. The 15 currently open or about to be (maybe) re-opened: Racing for Heroes Raceway(Formerly Clinton County Raceway), America's Motorsport's Park (formerly Gambler's and Hidden Valley), McKean County Raceway, Bedford Speedway, Roaring Knob, Bradford Speedway, Allegheny Motor Speedway (formerly Tri-City Speedway), Eriez Speedway, Sportsman's Speedway, Hummingbird Speedway, Marion Center Speedway, Lernerville Speedway, Mercer Raceway Park, Dog Hollow Speedway and, Pittsburgh's Pennsylvania Motor Speedway.

It is mind boggling when you look at how many there are. I think two we can safely and sadly say are closed forever, and that is Challenger and Latrobe. But, there are still possibly four in AMS, TVR, TMS and Hesston that would need little attention to reopen. I didn't even add the effort to try and reopen long closed Ebensburg Speedway into the mix. Or, for that matter, Hickory or Windber Stadium. No matter what way you look at it, the eastern half is kicking our asses in overall quality of racing offered, there isn't any question. Look up some races from the Port, or Grandview, the Grove or Big Diamond on YouTube, and you'll see what I mean. Around here, we are happy if there are five or eight cars that have a chance to win a headline division show on a regular night. Out there, there are 15 to 18 cars most nights that can win, and the racing reflects that. More money = better drivers with better equipment, less cautions and better racing. It isn't rocket science.

I'm not as familiar, so I might have missed one or to, but in the eastern half of Pa., I count 8 dirt tracks using the same parameters as I listed in the western half. Those tracks are Port Royal, Susquehanna, Williams Grove, Selinsgrove, Lincoln, Grandview, Penn-Can and Big Diamond. Six of these tracks I know pay major money to their weekly headline class. In fact, I read where this season Big Diamond will pay their 358 Mods $3200 to win, $275 to start for fields of 33 or more cars. They are offering similar incentives for their support classes as well. I've never cared for a pay scale based on car count, but when you are already paying an excellent purse, I think you can get away with it.

There may be three or four 1/4 mile tracks scattered throughout the state that don't race anything more exotic than 4-Cylinder Stocks, so I didn't count those, for example, Hill Valley, Path Valley, Linda's, etc.

So, there you have it. Proof positive that paying more money can and does work as it relates to attracting big fields of cars and fans.

Edited by Skull, 03 February 2014 - 07:10 AM.

[WestPA LM Fan]

Very good post, Skull. Especially the reference to the racing at the eastern tracks.

[Fwig]

There has been several good points about tracks versus car counts, east versus west, and even hotels and smode booths. I think we need to look at the owners/promoters. For example, Hagerstown has several major events each year. Lucas, WoO, Three State, Octoberfest, etc... They make the most money on a non-racing event. Every year their Monster Truck event made by far more money than any of their racing events. A race track is for entertainment, hence track owners are in the entertainment business, and need to start thinking outside the box. You don't have to run a weekly show and worry how many cars and fans are going to show up. Run sanctioned classes (eliminate your own rule book), have a topless night (roofs off for all you pervs), something to keep it fresh and keep the fans interest. Have a concert or two each year, you all are picking up what I'm laying down. OWNERS/PROMOTERS: You have acreage with facilities, You don't have to try to race every night and just get by, or eventually close the doors. Work with other tracks where you your schedules will work together so racers have a place to run or want to take that weekend off to go to your Country kickin Ho-down. You're in the entertainment business to make money. That's my two cents on race tracks.

[POWER21]

There has been several good points about tracks versus car counts, east versus west, and even hotels and smode booths. I think we need to look at the owners/promoters. For example, Hagerstown has several major events each year. Lucas, WoO, Three State, Octoberfest, etc... They make the most money on a non-racing event. Every year their Monster Truck event made by far more money than any of their racing events.

A race track is for entertainment, hence track owners are in the entertainment business, and need to start thinking outside the box. You don't have to run a weekly show and worry how many cars and fans are going to show up. Run sanctioned classes (eliminate your own rule book), have a topless night (roofs off for all you pervs), something to keep it fresh and keep the fans interest. Have a concert or two each year, you all are picking up what I'm laying down.

OWNERS/PROMOTERS: You have acreage with facilities, You don't have to try to race every night and just get by, or eventually close the doors. Work with other tracks where you your schedules will work together so racers have a place to run or want to take that weekend off go to your Country kickin Ho-down. You're in the entertainment business to make money.

That's my two cents on race tracks.

All the negitivity over the reopening of Dog Hollow is sad. All you people that are so down on the promoter and all people involved. I did not see any of you guys complaining trying to operate a track. As far as payouts if you don't like it please do not come.

[Fwig]

All the negitivity over the reopening of Dog Hollow is sad. All you people that are so down on the promoter and all people involved. I did not see any of you guys complaining trying to operate a track. As far as payouts if you don't like it please do not come.

I won't get into my background in racing, but I've been involved in all aspects of racing. You replied to my post, and there is not one negative mention of Dog Hollow. Now What they ORIGINALLY posted, was very tasteless. Not a good start at promoting your track, and I think that is what everyone else is voicing their opinion on. My post is stating that all tracks can survive by being creative. No law states that you can only have races at the facility.

It's people like you stating "As far as payouts, if you don't like it please don't do not come" is exactly the promotion you don't want for a race track..... Just saying!

[Ring Gear]

You are partially correct. In addition to the existence of too many tracks in the eastern part of Pa., there are way too many disparate divisions. Back in the 70's, you had a Claimer division, (today's Strictly Stocks), Semi-Lates (today's 358 LM's), LM's (today's Supers, obviously), Sprints and Modifieds/Coupes. There was a Six-Cylinder division at Mercer, and a Mini-Stock/4-Cylinder class at one time or another at both Mercer and Pittsburgh. That was about it for divisions, off the top of my head. Now we have all of this crap, including Crate everything they can put a Crate motor in, and there isn't enough sponsorship money or fan interest to service all of these classes and tracks. Divisions, mostly support classes, need to be eliminated along with some tracks before we ever see full weekly fields on a consistent basis again.

Look out east. Yes, there are a couple of tracks that run five classes, but most are four or less. Williams Grove runs 410 and 358 Sprints on Fridays, 358 LM's, Super Sportsman Sprints and Street Stocks on Saturdays. In addition to the beautiful 4/10 clay of Susquehanna, they have a small oval called The Outback Track that they use for Kart and Micro racing. In the eastern part of the state, there are fewer "big car" tracks. There are many 1/5 mile and under tracks for Karting, Legends/Mod-Lite, 4-Cylinder and and Micro Sprint shows. In other words, not many support classes that too many drivers make a career of racing in, unlike around here. Consider also that the economy isn't any different out there than it is here, so it can't be used as a valid excuse, in comparison.

From Clinton County Speedway west to the Ohio line, from the W.V./Maryland border to NY in the north, I count 15 dirt tracks a 1/4 mile or larger featuring classes bigger than 4-Cylinders. In other words, no Blanket Hills or Karting tracks. The list does include two tracks, the former Tri-City and DHS which may or may not reopen. The list also does not include, TVR, Allegheny Mountain Speedway, Latrobe, Challenger, TMR or Hesston. No asphalt, either, i.e.; Lake Erie, Motordrome, CNB Bank or Jennerstown. The 15 currently open or about to be (maybe) re-opened: Racing for Heroes Raceway(Formerly Clinton County Raceway), America's Motorsport's Park (formerly Gambler's and Hidden Valley), McKean County Raceway, Bedford Speedway, Roaring Knob, Bradford Speedway, Allegheny Motor Speedway (formerly Tri-City Speedway), Eriez Speedway, Sportsman's Speedway, Hummingbird Speedway, Marion Center Speedway, Lernerville Speedway, Mercer Raceway Park, Dog Hollow Speedway and, Pittsburgh's Pennsylvania Motor Speedway.

It is mind boggling when you look at how many there are. I think two we can safely and sadly say are closed forever, and that is Challenger and Latrobe. But, there are still possibly four in AMS, TVR, TMS and Hesston that would need little attention to reopen. I didn't even add the effort to try and reopen long closed Ebensburg Speedway into the mix. Or, for that matter, Hickory or Windber Stadium. No matter what way you look at it, the eastern half is kicking our asses in overall quality of racing offered, there isn't any question. Look up some races from the Port, or Grandview, the Grove or Big Diamond on YouTube, and you'll see what I mean. Around here, we are happy if there are five or eight cars that have a chance to win a headline division show on a regular night. Out there, there are 15 to 18 cars most nights that can win, and the racing reflects that. More money = better drivers with better equipment, less cautions and better racing. It isn't rocket science.

I'm not as familiar, so I might have missed one or to, but in the eastern half of Pa., I count 8 dirt tracks using the same parameters as I listed in the western half. Those tracks are Port Royal, Susquehanna, Williams Grove, Selinsgrove, Lincoln, Grandview, Penn-Can and Big Diamond. Six of these tracks I know pay major money to their weekly headline class. In fact, I read where this season Big Diamond will pay their 358 Mods $3200 to win, $275 to start for fields of 33 or more cars. They are offering similar incentives for their support classes as well. I've never cared for a pay scale based on car count, but when you are already paying an excellent purse, I think you can get away with it.

There may be three or four 1/4 mile tracks scattered throughout the state that don't race anything more exotic than 4-Cylinder Stocks, so I didn't count those, for example, Hill Valley, Path Valley, Linda's, etc.

So, there you have it. Proof positive that paying more money can and does work as it relates to attracting big fields of cars and fans.

Some of those tracks in the east pay excellent money for weekly shows, I agree. How many of those tracks that do, have tracks running the same classes with in an hour or so of them like we do in our area ?

Those tracks that you mention have excellent fan bases which enable them to be able to pay the kind of money that they do. I've been there and seen it for myself.

If those particular tracks were competing for fans and not filling their stands I do not think that they would be paying that kind of money.

I would like to see the comparison in the number of actlve tracks along with the tracks that have been closed in each area. Correct me if I'm wrong but there are probably very few track closings in the east.

I am not disputing your facts, but fewer tracks equal better car counts and fans.

For what ever reason more money in "this area" has not worked for what ever reason. Look at Raceway 7 a few years back when Ron Neilson started paying $2000 to win. It helped for 2 or 3 weeks or so and they got some good car counts. Then look what happened.

It is my opinion that the competition was harder. Their were cars that were not qualifying for features and so forth.

So what happened? Car started leaving for other tracks... Which there were "many"to to choose from to increase their chances of making the feature in tracks with dwindling fields and paying lesser money.

My case in point is .... Tracks down east with big car counts, you mention 33 or more. What happens to the cars that do not make the feature? There are 15 to 18 that can win every week. What about the rest that can't win a feature which are probably several and the ones that have a hard time qualifying for a feature?

If I am not mistaken, which I could be believe me. If there were several more tracks from which to choose from, I believe some of these cars would be leaving for other race tracks. So what happens to these tracks with the dwindling car counts?

No more big money that they would not have had in the first place because of all the tracks competing for fans.

So what's my point ??? You tell me ' cause I'm just "runnin" at the type writer as usual.

Have a nice day ..

[Express Man]

Need to raise your Superlatemodel payout in the middle if you want to get cars! Only one car can win! $1,000.00 to win is more than enough But $180.00 for 8th is less than your two competitors pay to start Needs to be $200.00 or better for 10th! And forget about two payouts! The payout is the payout! What you do in the very beginning will determine your success in this business! And you won't get a second chance! Just my.02 Ask Jim Michany!

[The Legend]

Need to raise your Superlatemodel payout in the middle if you want to get cars! Only one car can win! $1,000.00 to win is more than enough But $180.00 for 8th is less than your two competitors pay to start Needs to be $200.00 or better for 10th! And forget about two payouts! The payout is the payout! What you do in the very beginning will determine your success in this business! And you won't get a second chance! Just my.02 Ask Jim Michany!

The more they pay the more guys will spend to win the money ....

[BFP92]

The more they pay the more guys will spend to win the money ....

In the super division that is already being done so your point means nothing.

[The Legend]

In the super division that is already being done so your point means nothing.

That's not my point , higher pay outs attract better cars which makes is harder for the lower funded teams to compete

[54warrior]

Consider also that the economy isn't any different out there than it is here, so it can't be used as a valid excuse, in comparison.

Having lived out in Lancaster for 7 years (2006 to 2013), I would argue that it is a much more thriving economy once you get EAST of the Susquehanna.

[BaconBits]

Having lived out in Lancaster for 7 years (2006 to 2013), I would argue that it is a much more thriving economy once you get EAST of the Susquehanna.

To be fair, though, out east there's a lot of people making NY/NJ money and living in PA. That helps drive the economy.

Edited by BaconBits, 07 February 2014 - 03:14 PM.

[Express Man]

The more they pay the more guys will spend to win the money ....

The better the racing the more the fans will want to come!

[Skull]

That's not my point , higher pay outs attract better cars which makes is harder for the lower funded teams to compete

Then one of three things will happen. The have nots will find a way, go to a lower division or quit.

More and better teams racing for more money attracts more fans which attracts more lucrative advertisers for both the tracks and the teams.

Edited by Skull, 09 February 2014 - 08:49 AM.

[The Legend]

Then one of two three things will happen. The have nots will find a way, go to a lower division or quit.

More and better teams racing for more money attracts more fans which attracts more lucrative advertisers for both the tracks and the teams.

Yep ... Lots of guys quit racing your absolutely right .... Thinking big sponsors are coming for tracks and teams is a complete pipe dream. Big sponsors are doing it because they are competitive people and they want to stand in victory lane not for a return on their investment ... Think about it what type of business could advertise on a car or at a local track and expect to even break even on that ??? And the answer is none unless they don't spend very much

[baldtireman]

Race tracks are just like gas stations, fast food joints, motels and a lot of other businesses!! They get overbuilt and then no one makes the profit
they used to. Then the weaker ones begin to close!! Such is just a fact of most any business in this world, and I doubt it will ever change!! Here
in Butler they are building three new hotels/motels. And that is in addition to four national chain motels already here. No way they are ever going
to fill them up on a regular basis in a town the size of Butler! Some will end up closing!!


Walt

Walt...We had the same thing here in the West Mifflin area with the motel binge. Guess what...They are now at or near capacity most of the time....with migrant workers in the gas fields and others....Maybe somebody in that business has the inside track on coming things.Besides...It's easier to build new than to renovate old...and then sell the old to a fledgling entreuprenurial group who wants to be in the lodging business........just my 2 cents worth!

[baldtireman]

Yep ... Lots of guys quit racing your absolutely right .... Thinking big sponsors are coming for tracks and teams is a complete pipe dream. Big sponsors are doing it because they are competitive people and they want to stand in victory lane not for a return on their investment ... Think about it what type of business could advertise on a car or at a local track and expect to even break even on that ??? And the answer is none unless they don't spend very much

I always looked at the "crowd" at some local speedways and wondered how any sponsor could justify spending any money,because not enough people see the ad.....